Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Breaker 20 is hard to test as it's only lights. 4 interior and 3 exterior. 1 switch controls 1 exterior light, another switch controls the other 2 exterior lights. 1 3-way switch setup controls 2 interior lights and there are two single switches for the other interior lights. Breaker 18 is a ceiling fan controlled only by the chains on the fan, and an exterior light on a switch. Would I need to pull all the light fixtures and switches out to test these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaterComanche86 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Could you get a pic of the inside of your panel? So we can see the wires inside and trace them. Since all of your circuits are reading minimal amperage even when the breakers are off it could be an issues in the panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Good work. It is a process of elimination. Somewhere there is a feed back into the grounds. Did you unplug everything in circuits 1 and 2 and test? Especially circuit 2. A faulty small appliance or lamp could produce the results. The ground is attached to the boxes in both circuits 1 and 2, right? Look around and see if you can find what the ground is attached to. It could be tied into the neutral somewhere out of the panel - against code. It also could have been attached to a grounding rod outdoors. Code for your area determines the depth that the grounding rod needs to reach (to stay in wet dirt). In Virginia Beach, that depth is only 8 feet. The highest point above sea level here is only 145 feet and that is a landfill destined to be covered with soil and turned into a park. Someone could have run it back to the panel, which would be the best. It also could have been attached to a water pipe. Code says it should be attached to a metal cold water pipe where it first enters the building. Look at the cold water pipe on top of your water heater and see if you see more than just the one grounding wire that runs to the electric panel. The two white lines are not wired together? The next process would be the time consuming process of looking in the boxes for circuits 1 and 2 and see if the hot wire is touching the metal box anywhere. Got a flash light handy? The grounding line for the circuits 1 and 2 likely are connected. If you can find where, separate one circuit's ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Good work. It is a process of elimination. Somewhere there is a feed back into the grounds. Did you unplug everything in circuits 1 and 2 and test? Especially circuit 2. A faulty small appliance or lamp could produce the results. The ground is attached to the boxes in both circuits 1 and 2, right? Look around and see if you can find what the ground is attached to. It could be tied into the neutral somewhere out of the panel - against code. It also could have been attached to a grounding rod outdoors. Code for your area determines the depth that the grounding rod needs to reach (to stay in wet dirt). In Virginia Beach, that depth is only 8 feet. The highest point above sea level here is only 145 feet and that is a landfill destined to be covered with soil and turned into a park. Someone could have run it back to the panel, which would be the best. It also could have been attached to a water pipe. Code says it should be attached to a metal cold water pipe where it first enters the building. Look at the cold water pipe on top of your water heater and see if you see more than just the one grounding wire that runs to the electric panel. The two white lines are not wired together? The next process would be the time consuming process of looking in the boxes for circuits 1 and 2 and see if the hot wire is touching the metal box anywhere. Got a flash light handy? The grounding line for the circuits 1 and 2 likely are connected. If you can find where, separate one circuit's ground. Everything on both circuits was unplugged and the results were the same. I've got all the outlets on circuit 1 pulled out but I have not yet on circuit 2. The white wires under the sink are not together, they are capped separately and there is no voltage between them. The voltage is the same between the circuit 2 outlet box and the water pipes from one of the wires to pipes, slightly lower voltage on the other so they must both be neutral tied into something on these circuits. When we moved in the ground from the electrical panel was run outside on the opposite side of the wall as the panel and the copper wire running across the top of the ground to the rod, which was also protruding above ground. I buried it and hammered the rod as low as I could. I will grab a picture of the panel to see if you notice anything. I've got to go to work now so I'll do more testing tomorrow. Thank you so much for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, BeaterComanche86 said: Could you get a pic of the inside of your panel? So we can see the wires inside and trace them. Since all of your circuits are reading minimal amperage even when the breakers are off it could be an issues in the panel. All the wiring looks to be hooked up where it's supposed to be. There however are no wires that come in by themselves for ground meaning the single wires attached to the receptical boxes are grounded elsewhere in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, Dzimm said: Breaker 20 is hard to test as it's only lights. 4 interior and 3 exterior. 1 switch controls 1 exterior light, another switch controls the other 2 exterior lights. 1 3-way switch setup controls 2 interior lights and there are two single switches for the other interior lights. Breaker 18 is a ceiling fan controlled only by the chains on the fan, and an exterior light on a switch. Would I need to pull all the light fixtures and switches out to test these? No. Just turn off the breaker to the light circuit. Chances are you have a separate light circuit (so that lights don't dim when something drawing a lot of power turns on. And also so lights don't go out if you trip a breaker to something other than lights.) Chances are the ceiling fan is tied into the light circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaterComanche86 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 When you get home I’d turn all your breakers off and disconnect the “ground” from all of your outlet boxes in kitchen, when you disconnect it make sure it’s not touching anything. Turn your breakers back on and go to each box and test the “ground” and see which one has voltage. If you find it put a wire nut on that one and tuck it back in the box. I would honestly get rid of the make shift ground since it’s causing so much trouble. Best of luck and keep us posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Hope you had a productive night at work. Your electric panel looks like it replaced the original one. The yellow wire nuts on the neutral white lines are a give away. The lines moved from the original panel were not long enough and were spliced. It also looks like a 120 v circuit and a 220 v circuit were added after the new panel was installed. There is a gray jacketed cable that comes in at the top right of the panel and crosses over and down the left side. The jacket is a give away. Is the black wire loose and just butted against the lower breaker? I can not tell from the picture. If so, pull it away and put a wire nut on the end of it , or tape it off. The prior owner added a circuit then removed it. If that is the case, also remove the neutral and ground from the grounding bar. Any guess what the prior home owner added but then removed? Other than that, your panel looks to be in good order. The 220 v circuit on the lower left also looks to have been added and looks to be in good order. I don't how much experience you have working in an electric panel but regard everything as hot. Only use tools with insulated tools.. I can not tell for sure from the picture but it looks like you have a main breaker at the bottom to shut off the panel. Only turn it on or off with everything in the house turned off. Especially big drawn items. Rubber sole shoes only. Floor dry of course. The only way to kill everything is to pull the meter. The silver bars in the middle are hot. The large middle black cable connects to the power company just as each of the two 120 volt single phases do. There is a brown ground on the right lower panel. The pic is not totally clear. Does that ground run through a grommet in bottom right corner of the panel? A second line returns next to it? That ground should be connected to the grounding rod you hammered into the earth. I would have left it above ground to mitigate corrosion and damage from digging blindly. Are there 2 conductors attached to the rod? One line may find its way to all the outlet boxes in your house; based on your earlier comment about brown wires hooked to the back of each box. A good thing. With your tester, go to several outlets in your house and touch the hot side of the receptacle and the center metal plate between the receptacle. (If the covers are on, touch the center screw holding the plate on. If you get 120 v, good. If anything lower, paint on the screw may cause the drop. Take the plate off and touch to the center metal.) You mentioned above that you might have reverse polarity on a living room receptacle. Black wire should be connected to the copper screw; white to silver one. Small slot on the front of receptacle is hot, larger one is neutral. Sorry to have insulted your intelligence for all you already knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 2 hours ago, Manche757 said: Hope you had a productive night at work. Your electric panel looks like it replaced the original one. The yellow wire nuts on the neutral white lines are a give away. The lines moved from the original panel were not long enough and were spliced. It also looks like a 120 v circuit and a 220 v circuit were added after the new panel was installed. There is a gray jacketed cable that comes in at the top right of the panel and crosses over and down the left side. The jacket is a give away. Is the black wire loose and just butted against the lower breaker? I can not tell from the picture. If so, pull it away and put a wire nut on the end of it , or tape it off. The prior owner added a circuit then removed it. If that is the case, also remove the neutral and ground from the grounding bar. Any guess what the prior home owner added but then removed? Other than that, your panel looks to be in good order. The 220 v circuit on the lower left also looks to have been added and looks to be in good order. I don't how much experience you have working in an electric panel but regard everything as hot. Only use tools with insulated tools.. I can not tell for sure from the picture but it looks like you have a main breaker at the bottom to shut off the panel. Only turn it on or off with everything in the house turned off. Especially big drawn items. Rubber sole shoes only. Floor dry of course. The only way to kill everything is to pull the meter. The silver bars in the middle are hot. The large middle black cable connects to the power company just as each of the two 120 volt single phases do. There is a brown ground on the right lower panel. The pic is not totally clear. Does that ground run through a grommet in bottom right corner of the panel? A second line returns next to it? That ground should be connected to the grounding rod you hammered into the earth. I would have left it above ground to mitigate corrosion and damage from digging blindly. Are there 2 conductors attached to the rod? One line may find its way to all the outlet boxes in your house; based on your earlier comment about brown wires hooked to the back of each box. A good thing. With your tester, go to several outlets in your house and touch the hot side of the receptacle and the center metal plate between the receptacle. (If the covers are on, touch the center screw holding the plate on. If you get 120 v, good. If anything lower, paint on the screw may cause the drop. Take the plate off and touch to the center metal.) You mentioned above that you might have reverse polarity on a living room receptacle. Black wire should be connected to the copper screw; white to silver one. Small slot on the front of receptacle is hot, larger one is neutral. Sorry to have insulted your intelligence for all you already knew. No insult taken, I appreciate you being so thorough and I fully understand why it's necessary. The gray wire in the panel from the top is one I added for my deep freeze. It's tied into a breaker that has 2 outlets on it. It is a double tap breaker and everything is tight there. The 220 that was added runs out to the sub panel in the shop that was built in 2003. The brown wire in the bottom corner of the box looks to be an old phone line or something, it's taped off and just tucked in there. There is only one copper wire running to the rod and it is the same one that's attached here in the panel. The reverse polarity is the replacement extension cord end, the outlet is fine. When we moved in I went around and replaced all the outlets in the house and made sure they were wired correctly, some of course we're not. Went around and tested a few outlets, plates off, hot to receptical mounts: Bedroom - 48v Bathroom - 120v Spare bedroom - 48v Living room - 48v Kitchen (circuit 2) - 38v kitchen (circuit 2) GFCI - 11.2v Garage1 - 48v Garage2 I installed for my deep freeze, tied into same breaker as garage 1 - 120v Garage3 different breaker - 8v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaterComanche86 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 According to this, I'm assuming +/- 0.1v is okay, this would mean these circuits are suspect: - Breaker 22 (circuit 1) - Breaker 14 (circuit 2) - Breaker 20 - Breaker 18 - Breaker 6 It seems that some where along the line someone accidentally tied your new ground into a neutral somewhere, these breakers quoted above would be the first ones I would check. It’s gonna take some time looking through each box and light but I think if you can identify it you may find your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Somewhere along the line, your ground and neutral have been mixed. In 1969, your house had a 3 prong outlet in the bathroom? Refrigerator? Washing machine? All others have 2 prong outlets? The bathroom reads 120v suggesting the ground is good. Can you tell if the boxes in the bedrooms have the any grounding wire either to the inside or the brown one you found on the back of the boxes in the kitchen? I would have expected the bedrooms to show 120 if the boxes were grounded or zero if not. Check your branch panel in the shop. The ground and neutral should NOT be attached to the same bar.. Under the kitchen sink looks suspect. Find out what the white lines lead to. Is the dishwasher wire run to one of the two kitchen circuits or does it run all the way to the panel? Flip off the breaker to the ceiling fan in case someone attached the fan ground and neutral to the white neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Is your 120v microwave circuit still hooked to the 220 stove circuit? That is not good but let's not get into that until we solve the other issue. If your house was built in 1969, you have a 3 wire stove circuit and not a 4 wire circuit? If so, there is no neutral there. If you tied the microwave circuit neutral to the stove ground, you contaminated the ground. Disconnect the microwave circuit. Test circuits again from hot to metal in middle of receptacles. Looking for 120v or zero. Residential 220 is actually two 120v phases as you know. 60 megahertz lines are pulsating 60 times a second. The two phases pulse differently and you get 220v. European current is 220 volt but 50 megahertz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Is your 120v microwave circuit still hooked to the 220 stove circuit? That is not good but let's not get into that until we solve the other issue. If your house was built in 1969, you have a 3 wire stove circuit and not a 4 wire circuit? If so, there is no neutral there. If you tied the microwave circuit neutral to the stove ground, you contaminated the ground. Disconnect the microwave circuit. Test circuits again from hot to metal in middle of receptacles. Looking for 120v or zero. Residential 220 is actually two 120v phases as you know. 60 megahertz lines are pulsating 60 times a second. The two phases pulse differently and you get 220v. European current is 220 volt but 50 megahertz. The stove is a 3 wire circuit and I disconnected the microwave first thing. It has been disconnected since the beginning of troubleshooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 42 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Somewhere along the line, your ground and neutral have been mixed. In 1969, your house had a 3 prong outlet in the bathroom? Refrigerator? Washing machine? All others have 2 prong outlets? The bathroom reads 120v suggesting the ground is good. Can you tell if the boxes in the bedrooms have the any grounding wire either to the inside or the brown one you found on the back of the boxes in the kitchen? I would have expected the bedrooms to show 120 if the boxes were grounded or zero if not. Check your branch panel in the shop. The ground and neutral should NOT be attached to the same bar.. Under the kitchen sink looks suspect. Find out what the white lines lead to. Is the dishwasher wire run to one of the two kitchen circuits or does it run all the way to the panel? Flip off the breaker to the ceiling fan in case someone attached the fan ground and neutral to the white neutral. Bedroom doesn't appear to have that ground wire. Just pulled the bathroom outlet and vanity switch out. The GFCI ground and neutral are tied together. There is a ground wire attached to the box in the very back from I'm guessing the run from the panel. There is also a hot wire capped but it's paired white is still tied in with all the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 The shop panel is a mess and yeah they appear to be bonded.. incoming ground isn't attached to anything.. They've also got multiple hots under the same breaker screw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 To finish answering your questions, the dishwasher is tied into circuit 2. Washer is on its own 3wire 220v. All the outlets in the house were two prong aside from GFCI in the bathroom, I did the bad of putting in 3 prongs without a ground because screw those stupid adapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 First off let me back track a little in a 220 circuit. Some appliances use both 110-120 /220-240. An electric clothes dryers might use 220 how the heating coils but 110-120 for timers and the motor that turns the drum. In that case, whether you call the third wire a ground or a neutral becomes pedantic. If the circuit runs all the way to the electric panel, it becomes a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Man, let's all gather around at your house with a case of beer, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 In 1969 you most likely had a regular 3 prong outlet that was grounded to the electrical panel. Washer and refrigerators had 3 prongs usually at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Are you comfortable going to your main panel in your house and pulling away all 3 leads that go to the shop? Temporary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Man, let's all gather around at your house with a case of beer, I'll smoke some ribs and brisket and provide the beer.. 2 minutes ago, Manche757 said: In 1969 you most likely had a regular 3 prong outlet that was grounded to the electrical panel. Washer and refrigerators had 3 prongs usually at that time. There is no other grounds at the panel so how would those be grounded back there? 10 minutes ago, Manche757 said: First off let me back track a little in a 220 circuit. Some appliances use both 110-120 /220-240. An electric clothes dryers might use 220 how the heating coils but 110-120 for timers and the motor that turns the drum. In that case, whether you call the third wire a ground or a neutral becomes pedantic. If the circuit runs all the way to the electric panel, it becomes a non-issue. The 220/240 circuits all seem to not change anything in regards to power on the neutral. Even the shop one does nothing so I think those are probably all fine and not necessarily part of the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Are you comfortable going to your main panel in your house and pulling away all 3 leads that go to the shop? Temporary. Just pulled them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Do the test again on various outlet. Hot slot and metal in middle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 test hot to box while you are there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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