Post lift tire location problem

[Gubachoo]

3 hours ago, Dzimm said:

Right but they didn't fold towards the front after you lowered the truck off the jack? 

 

Here is a better picture to explain what I'm talking about. 

https://goo.gl/images/g33NkQ

 

You sure they are MJ leafs and not XJ leafs? They are different sizes and often XJ parts are sold as MJ even though they aren't the same.  What is the measurement from eye to eye straight across?  XJs are 51.5" across and MJs are 57"

 

I didn't measure eye to eye before I installed, but I did pull the old spring out and lay the new on top to compare and they were almost identical (except for the extra leaf and obviously extra arching due to them being lift springs) so they are definitely MJ springs. Everything seems to fit and sit perfect save the axle location (which may not be wrong judging by hornbrods photo of his truck) and the shackles sit leaning aft slightly just as they are supposed to. 

[HOrnbrod]

9 minutes ago, Gubachoo said:

And I checked the shackles, although they are not the same that you have (lifted shackles you have there?) they are oriented in the same way. It seems my gap is close to or equal to the gap you have. I assume you have no issues with yours? Can I ask what suspension you have under there? Thanks.

 

I have General Spring MT springs with a slightly longer shackles (~3/4" longer than stock) from Teraflex. Used them because they are greasable, and to make up for the MT springs settling a bit over time. No issues, nice ride and handling.

 

If your shackles look similarly orientated, I'm at a loss as to your problem. Exactly how much lift did these springs give you? Did you measure height before and after? 

[DirtyComanche]

3 hours ago, Gubachoo said:

 

But what is the alternative? I tried to do the research and paid a little more money for what people said were the better made components. I agree and would love to stick with OEM, but for lift springs... what choice do we have?

 

SOA, hybrid/bastard packs, Ford/Chevy springs (and/or SOA with them), or move the mounts.

 

Leaf springs are very much something that can be tuned, and as long as you have an unbent pair of main leafs you've got a pretty solid starting point.  Otherwise the sky is the limit, there's a couple solid looking options for using basically the factory spring mounts from both Ford and Chevy, and if you're willing to move the mounts you can use just about anything.

[Gubachoo]

7 hours ago, HOrnbrod said:

 

I have General Spring MT springs with a slightly longer shackles (~3/4" longer than stock) from Teraflex. Used them because they are greasable, and to make up for the MT springs settling a bit over time. No issues, nice ride and handling.

 

If your shackles look similarly orientated, I'm at a loss as to your problem. Exactly how much lift did these springs give you? Did you measure height before and after? 

 

They are the 4.5 advertised spring from HC (actually produced by Atlas spring in CA) I measured about 4 - 4.5 lift after installed all around, so that was correct. Yeah, I'm at a loss... Maybe its ok? I compressed the springs with the jack last night at the wheel and the tire obviously moves back a little as it moves up and doesn't contact the flare, and looks like it won't with the 31's, but that sure would suck...

[Jeep Driver]

Drill a new hole forward in the perch and plate.

 

It looks wrong, it looks like you did something wrong............and I could not live with that. 

[Dzimm]

I'm completely at a loss as well.  Doesn't make sense at all.  Will the axle even hit the bump stops correctly when it bottoms out or is it too far forward?  How is your springs bolted to the axle?  

 

Maybe take some more pictures of the underside and maybe someone will spot something out of place.  According to your measurements in the first post, the springs should be the correct size but I don't see how it pulled the axle so far forward.  It's definitely not sitting right.. 

[Jeep Driver]

I'm not at a loss...........

 

They used stock measurement and then increased arch, that placed the pin forward in the arch. 

 

If they are going to produce lift springs they need to move the pin accordingly............idiots abound. 

[Jeep Driver]

OP, at this point you have two choices. 

 

If it were me, I'd call Hell's Creek and DEMAND a return UPS label, I'd send those back. 

 

GS MW springs will put you right back to the height you are at now with the wheel centered. I'd order those and wait. 

 

My wheel was just north of center, I drilled new holes between center and the square hole, that moved my axle back about 3/4", my wheel is perfectly centered. Some will say that when compressed that moves the wheel back too far, that has not been my experience. I'm anal about this type of thing. 

 

 

Or you can drill holes and live with what you got. 

 

 

It irks me to no end that retailers sell this crap and then just expect you to live with it.......really pisses me off. 

They need to be made aware of their reputation. 

Yours is not the first, I've seem many many pics of similar off-center wheels........they obviously expect you to accept this. 

[Dzimm]

1 hour ago, Jeep Driver said:

I'm not at a loss...........

 

They used stock measurement and then increased arch, that placed the pin forward in the arch. 

 

If they are going to produce lift springs they need to move the pin accordingly............idiots abound. 

That's a good point.  I haven't seen anyone else with this issue after getting these springs so idk if people don't pay attention or they just haven't sold any recently.  I agree with you,  send them back and order from someone else. 

[HOrnbrod]

The owner of Hell Creek is Tom Lardner. When he was manufacturing his own springs all was well and everyone liked them. He's always been a good guy and will make things right. He is also a member here - give him the url for this post topic and have him read through it.

 

Post back the results.....

[Gubachoo]

Damnit... This is my daily driver and I just spent the weekend getting it done and I have to move next weekend 5 hours away... Ugh. Just sent an email to Tom at HC with more photos. I'll include those here too as reference for you guys. This is pre and post lift, same tires. When I laid the springs side by side the pin looked off, but then I laid them on top of one another and they were close enough (less than an inch of difference) that I figured this small offset was just part of how they had to be considering the extra arch. Hmm. Well at least for once the intense rust isn't the most glaringly terrible thing about my truck...

[HOrnbrod]

What's the measurement of your shackles from eye-to-eye? Can you post a closeup of the shackle(s)?

[Gubachoo]

11 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

What's the measurement of your shackles from eye-to-eye? Can you post a closeup of the shackle(s)?

 So I'm the only one home right now, but tried to measure anyways. It is approx 54.5 eye to eye as it sit right now. Looking at the chart posted previously it looks like the measurement follows the arch of the spring but with only me here I can't really pull that off at the moment. According to the chart they are short, but accounting for the arc I think it's not far off... and the eye to pin measurement on the chart seems correct to mine (pre lift at least) 

 

Here are some shackle pics I just snapped as it sits on somewhat level ground

 

[HOrnbrod]

Is the closed end of the shackle facing rearward, as in this pic? I don't have stock shackles anymore so I can't use the side view.

 

[Gubachoo]

OK, so while I was posting that last one, Tom at Hellcreek emailed me back. This is his reply

 

"The rear axle on my Comanche with the prototype springs ( the one pictured on our website) is 2 inches closer to the front of the wheel well after 6 years of daily driving.  We designed the springs that way because, as the truck is loaded or the rear springs are flexed, the axle goes backwards toward the bumper.  Since the front end is fixed, it never goes toward the front.  This keeps the tires from rubbing when the truck is loaded or the springs are flexed.  Also, if the springs were farther back, especially with a 4.5” lift, it would most likely necessitate the use of a slip yoke eliminator to prevent the slip yoke from sliding out of the transmission or transfer case, or at the least riding at the end of the limit and causing all kinds of vibration problems.  This is the best compromise we could come up with, and, so far, everyone has been satisfied.  They will settle some over time and look better, but they will never be exactly centered.  When I measured them on my truck, I went from the bottom of the fender flare to the tire with the ruler pointed directly at the hub.  It measured 4” at the front and 6” at the rear.  Those figures will change with tire size.  I hope this helps."

 

I don't know. This is a reasonable explanation, and it does seem to drive fine, but is this really correct... Has anyone else used a HC 4.5 lift that can weigh in? I am supposed to mount the tires tomorrow and then drive to northern VT for the winter on Friday. On honest inspection of the whole thing, there does not appear to be anything that will rub or change with the geometry or give me any problems like that. I don't think it looks right, but Tom's explanation does make sense even if the appearance isn't like stock. Most lifts I have seen are AAL for these which would also pivot the axle a little forward. hmmm

[Gubachoo]

5 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

Is the closed end of the shackle facing rearward, as in this pic? I don't have stock shackles anymore so I can't use the side view.

 

 

Yeah, they are the same

[HOrnbrod]

Drive it. Let them settle down, and it will get better. Personally I would have preferred their lower lift springs, but that's just me.  Tom's explanation makes good sense.

[Gubachoo]

24 minutes ago, HOrnbrod said:

Drive it. Let them settle down, and it will get better. Personally I would have preferred their lower lift springs, but that's just me.  Tom's explanation makes good sense.

 

The lower lift was my original preference, but one of the reasons I wanted to lift it is I am pretty tall and I use the truck bed à lot and the height of it is so low at stock height as to bother my back. So I did the math and figured with the 4.5 and 31's it would put it at the height I wanted vs the 3. That was my rational. We'll see if it works. 

 

I sat down with my buddy who is an engineer and we talked about it while looking at the truck. While we agree it would be good to be an inch or two further back, we couldn't see any big problems arising and his explanation holds water. I guess I'll do that. Here's hoping...