ChiefJosh Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 So, here's the deal: This morning, I start the truck, and let it warm up for about 5 min before I take off for work. I put it in 1st and pull out of my parking space in my apartment's parking lot. I shift to 2nd to idle to the road, and WHAM!! my truck comes to a stop as I put the brakes on. I do all visual checks- no leaking fluid. I can cycle through all five gears and reverse with the clutch in. I can put it in any gear and attempt to let the clutch out, but if I do it slowly, all I get is the smell of burning clutch and it stalls out. I stalled it in ever gear trying to get it to move using different syncros, but nothing. I took it out of gear and rolled(read 'pushed') it back into the parking spot. What gives? I know its a Peugot and I shouldn't expect a lot, but can anybody help me trouble shoot this? Thanks (My truck specs are in my sig.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87manche Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 taken a look at the fluid? I'd have to say that if it's locked up good enough to smoke the clutch then it's probably grenaded inside. it's odd that it seems to shift alright though, perhaps it's the T-case that's locked up, tried shifting that in and out of 4WD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 Oh yeah- I forgot. Last week I looked at my trans fluid and it looked more like pea soup than anything else, so I drained the fluid from the drain plug at the back/bottom of the trans and I refilled it with generic sythetic 75-90w, figuring I'd change it out again in another 1K. I shifted like butter for the last week. I tried the transfer case, I can shift to 4HI, into N, and back. I didn't check 4LO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 Okay, here's what I've got. I just ran out to check something, as I was thinking about what 87manche said about the t-case. I can shift the t-case through all gears. If I put the t-case in N, I can let the clutch out with the trans in any gear and it won't stall. I can hear the trans gears turning, especially reverse, you know, it always has that whiny tone. So I guess that means it's my t-case that's locked up. I've got a 231. Are all years of the 231 the same? Is it the same t-case as in an XJ? If I'm replacing should I go with the 242? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisty Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 I can't remember what year but the input to the 231 changed from 21 spline to 23. i think it was 1990? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyComanche Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 If the truck isn't a DD I'd split the tcase and see what's going on before getting a new one. Umm, any chance something else is locked up? You said you pushed it back into your parking space while in neutral? If the case was locked and not in neutral it is unlikely that you could have done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 When I pushed it back into the parking spot, I had the trans in Neutral and the t-case in 2wd. Is there any chance it is my rear diff? But I suppose if that was locked up, I wouldn't be able to push it in neutral either..... It's not a DD yet, but I was hoping it would be.... I have one small garage bay to work on it over at a friends place, but not a whole lot of room. I was just thinking that if I could pick up a 231 from a junkyard or something for under $50, that wouldn't be a bad way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87manche Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 the ba-10 had both a 21 spline and a 23 spline variant. You'll have to divorce the t-case and trans to verify what you've got. http://novak-adapt.com/knowledge/np231.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 From what I am reading here, you don't know and we don't know if the problem is actually the transmission or the transfer case. The original description of the problem sounded like when you shifted the tranny slipped out of an operating rod as you went for the next gear, leaving it in two gears at once. That would explain the sudden stop, and the inability to make it move after that. However, if that's what happened (and it does happen, not only with the Peugeot tranny. I have an '89 here with an AX-15 that's permanently locked in reverse) you should not have been able to push it back into the parking space. How hard was it to push? Did you have someone inside holding the clutch peddle down while you pushed? In fact, that wouldn't matter, as I think on it. The clutch only divorces the tranny from the engine. The tranny is ALWAYS connected to the rear drive shaft, unless you put the transfer case in neutral. Something here isn't adding up in my little brain. Like #5 said in that goofy robot movie, "Need input!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Eagle, you're right- I'm really unsure which is to blame. The only reason the truck was hard to push would be because I pushed it up a very slight incline. I don't think it pushed any harder than any other time I've pushed a car, except that I couldn't get any momentum going uphill slightly. No one else was in the truck, it was in Neutral, t-case in 2wd. Would lifting the rear tires off the ground help me diagnose this in anyway? (by turning either the driveshaft or the tires while in the air?) I guess it could be my rear diff right? If while the t-case is engaged and the tranny is engaged, the truck stalls, something is jammed. If the tranny runs smooth with the t-case disengaged, then it's not the trans. Either it's the rear diff or the t-case. How can I check this? What if I jack only one side of the rear up and attempt to spin that wheel(by hand) while the trans and t-case are in Neutral? Wouldn't that isolate the movement to the spider gears? Let me know if I'm thinking correctly about this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 The problem is, you have three possibilities -- the tranny, the transfer case, and the rear axle -- NONE of which should allow you to push the vehicle by yourself up an incline if that was the problem and it was severe enough to bring you to a screeching halt when driving. Before you go out buying axles and/or gearboxes, you really have to zero in on which is the culprit. I think what I would do is jack it up and put all four corners on jack stands, invite a couple of pals over to help watch and listen, and then go through the motions to try to isolate what's hanging up. First things is you want to be sure the tranny isn't locked in multiple gears. That's easy to check -- put it in neutral with the t-case in 2WD (engine not running) and try to turn the driveshaft by hand. To check your transfer case, just shift it to each position and rotate the rear driveshaft by hand. Have someone help you listen for odd noises, and be alert as you turn it for any grittiness or "catches" in the movement. In 2WD only the rear driveshaft should turn. In 4WD both should turn. To check neutral, remember that in your year the neutral position disengaged from the tranny, but did NOT unlock the drive shafts. So, with the tranny in neutral AND the t-case in neutral, both shafts should rotate when you turn the rear. Then put the transmission into gear. If you canNOT still turn the driveshafts by hand, your t-case neutral isn't disengaging. While it's up on jack stands you can also spin the rear tires and listen for odd noises coming out of that round thing in the middle of the rear axle. Even better (except it's freakin' COLD out) would be to pop the cover off the rear diff and take a peek inside. I'm honestly not sure what sequence I would follow to trouble-shoot this one. Maybe just keep trying things, one after another. Keep a notebook so you don't lose track of what you've already tried. Last oddball suggestion for the night: We know that the brakes on XJs and MJs get a bit ... "eccentric" ... when cold and damp. And the drum brakes are what's called "servo-assisted," which means that when you're rolling forward the shoe geometry is such that they help apply more force once the shoes contact the drum. The servo-assist geometry does NOT work in reverse, which is why the parking brake is more effective when you park facing downhill than it is when you park facing uphill. Is it possible that you got some ice stuck in your rear brakes, and they basically applied themselves? But not so hard that you couldn't push it backwards? You were going forward when it locked up, yes? Did you push it in reverse? If so, maybe try pulling the rear drums and UN-adjusting the brakes as an experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 I had brake pads let go and wedge the wheels to a halt in an XJ. I'd try driving it again to see if it's fine now. The diff may have a chunk stuck in between the ring and pinion that dropped back down when you pushed it backwards. DOH! The trans has shifted into 2 gears at once! Happened to my son with his '87 XJ too The Peugeot didn't come with 23 spline. AX-15 did and it became available part way into '90. I just picked up an AX-15 to put into my '87 Comanche tomorrow (I hope I'm feeling good so I can git'r done!) I have a NP208J to put behind it with a Novak clocking ring. PS: The way to tell a BA 10/5 from the AX-15 is to look at the shifter tower. AX-15 has 4 bolts holding it and BA 10/5 has 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 You guys aren't really following my words that closely. If the truck is in neutral I can push it. If it is in gear and I try to let the clutch out, the whole engine, trans, t-case twists the whole body of the truck and then stalls the truck. I don't think that's the brakes. When this happened, I really don't remember exactly, but I was only going about 5mph, and I didn't come to a screeching halt. As soon as I heard the WHAM, I put the clutch in and applied the brakes. Then I tried to put it in gear and move again, but it stalled out. This happened Tuesday AM. I have tried driving it twice since then, nothing doing. I believe the trans is fine. With the t-case in Neutral, I can let the clutch out in any gear of the trans and it will idle in gear. This has to mean that everything in the tranny is spinning. The tranny shifts fine with the transfer case in Neutral. It is only with the transfer case engaged that it stalls out. That means that it has to be either the rear or the transfer case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87manche Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 so here's what I would do in your situation. Drop the rear driveshaft, it's just 4 5/16 bolts. Put the t-case in 4wd and try to move the truck. if it moves in front wheel drive your rear diff has exploded. If it still stalls I'd say you're taking the t-case out to inspect/repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Yeah, now that's what I'm talking about. Right now my plan is to tow it up to my buddy's garage either tonight or tomorrow. Then I'll drop the driveshaft and see if it stalls out with the transfercase engaged. That'll isolate my problem. Thanks guys- I'll give the update when I get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Guess I was wrong on that one (didn't read close enough and I wasn't there to personally check it) I wonder if the tcase shifter fork broke and it's stuck in low and high at the same time? If you move the tcase shifter to neutral, it will disconnect the front one at the very least. How about lifting one rear tire to see if it spins both ways? (try with tcase in high and neutral) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenosha Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 hot tip! you did a new gearset in the rear when you were getting the truck up to spec for safety? Is it installed right? Id say this may be your best bet right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 9, 2007 Author Share Posted February 9, 2007 Well, here's the update. I crawled underneath it this afternoon, in the 20 degree weather we've been having, out in the parking lot. I decided if I tried to disconnect the rear driveshaft, I'd probably loose my fingers from the cold, so I jacked both rear tires up in the air and I pulled the drain plug from the D35. Inside I saw lots of not good things. :cry: All of the oil had this shiny metallic flake look to it, kinda like bassboat paint. It was really, really dirty (it was new a month ago). I saw at least one tooth missing from the spider gears. I tried spinning either wheel- the passenger side wheel spun freely and easily both directions. The drivers wheel on the other hand, spun with a good amount of resistance backwards, but did not budge at all forwards. (I spun the wheels with both the transmission and the t-case in neutral). I bought the truck about 2 months ago, knowing that the spider gears in the rear were blown. I replaced them, thinking that was all it needed. I'd never done it before, but it really wasn't complicated, and I didn't touch anything else inside. It ran great for the last month, but apparently, there is more wrong with this thing than I knew. I wish I'd have known that before, I'd have swapped out the whole rear then. Guess I'll have to do it now. That being said, if I'm gonna fix this thing, I'm putting in a D44. Mostly because it will be the easiest fix. I don't have any acess to any welding equipment, nor the time, otherwise I would consider an 8.8 or even an 8.25. If I find a D44 out of an MJ, are there any complications AT ALL, or will this be a simple swap? If I find a D44, what if any work should I do to it before I install it?(besides new oil and brakes as needed) I'm currently running 3.07's (I assume - 5spd, 4.0), on 31's. I have a line on two D44's, one with 3.07's, one with 3.55's. Would now be the best time to upgrade my gears without having to do ring and pinion replacement? If so, I'd also swap in a junkyard HP D30 that's not vacuum disconnect. Anybody see/hear any issues I'd run into? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 You don't say where you are, but if you plan tire upgrades, I suggest lower gears now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWLONGSHOT Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Yes a D44 from a MJ is a direct swap, no issues. But you will need the ubolt plates from the donor as well as new U bolts for a D44. I would go for the D44 with the 3:55's and pick up another D30 with same gears. You may even be able to recoup some coin by reselling you D30... Good luck!! CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted February 9, 2007 Share Posted February 9, 2007 Yes a D44 from a MJ is a direct swap, no issues. But you will need the ubolt plates from the donor as well as new U bolts for a D44. Unless you are running at least a 3" lift you will also need to shorten the drive shaft. The pinion snout on a D44 is about 3/4" longer than a D35. Just swapping in a D44 at stock height leaves you with the possibility of ramming the front yoke into the transfer case and grenading that. If you are really looking for the easiest fix, that's going to be another Dana 35 ... plus that will be easier to find. The Dana 44 is a better fix, for sure, but it's harder to find and does offer the drive shaft length issue to deal with. [EDIT]Never mind. Just looked at your signature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefJosh Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Alright, so here's the deal. After discussing with the wifey the amount I've got "invested" in this truck already and what else remains to be done, I decided to drop back and punt. That means we (that's right, she's got her own Carhartt bibs) went to the junkyard on Saturday, hoping to luck out with a D44, but we walked out with another D35. Looked okay, not bad for $85, drum to drum, mounts and all. I'm going to blame the next part on the freaking cold weather on Saturday. We were freezing, so I didn't look that closely at the internals after we pulled it, but this is what I saw: How big of a problem is this going to be? This is in the "new" axle I just pulled to replace the one that grenaded on me last week to begin this post. Did I just strike out and throw $85 and a whole Saturday into the wind? Should I even bother installing it, or is there a chance it'll be okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Not good... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyComanche Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Not good... Well, not good. Not ideal. Not even something I'd ever want to deal with. But - it will actually hold together like that. For a while at least. If you spin it over by hand do the gears still mesh at that point? It'll go click and the pinion will spin freely for a little while if they aren't. If that's the case - don't even think of using it. Otherwise WTH, it'll last a while on the street. You'll know when its time is up. But don't dare wheel it or do clutch dumps or burnouts or etc... So, your junkyard got warantee? My u-pull-it does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWLONGSHOT Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Call the JY and see if you can return it!! That really sux, I feel for you guys!!! Its VERY likely it will spin fine and mesh corrctly. That dosent change the fact that it is broken. There are MANY MANY D35's out there ....go get another!! Those gears are compramised, you alresdy have one with a problem...why would you want two? The D35 is problematic running one that has a known problem is looking for trouble. Good luck, CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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