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D44 set, lift & tire; questions :)


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Also I have no idea about what the benefits are of having, what I believe you meant by "long arms" was having longer control arms.

 

by "long-arm", I'm referring to the lifts that use arms that are much much longer than the stock arms and mount further back on the frame. when you lift up an MJ on stock control arms, the arms will angle down and the tire will be pulled backwards in the wheelwell (as well as mess up the caster of the front axle) as the assembly rotates. a "short arm lift" uses arms that are just a bit longer than stock, which pushes the tire back into the center of the wheelwell and fixes the caster. but the arms are still pointed down at a steep angle (a stock MJ's arms are pretty much level with the ground) and the impact forces of hitting bumps are harsher to your butt. Long-arms have a less steep angle and the benefits are a smoother ride (and generally more flex). the downsides are that they are more expensive and harder to install.

 

with a 4.5" lift, you should be fine with a short-arm lift. :thumbsup: above that though, you'd want to seriously look into longarms. Mostly I just wanted to make you aware that you had a choice. :cheers:

 

short arms:

2j8brc.jpg

 

long arms:

xli1qx.jpg

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Get '80 to '83 Wagoneer or Cherokee (narrow trac. All 4 drs are narrow trac and some 2 drs are too) or '84 to '91 Grand Wagoneer axles. Width is correct. After '86 they went to D44 front and rear, but the Rear Model 20 is plenty strong.

 

Go to a long arm kit for ride and lift and be done with it.

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I need guidance more than anything because even my shop isn't well experienced with the axle swap.

 

This will not end well... I would seriously reconsider your plans and just find an XJ or MJ D30 to put under for now until you do more research. Did you know that a Wagoneer D44 is a low pinion axle while you can get a HP D30 from an XJ or MJ that is just as strong and bolts in with no mods and can pretty easily be found with the 4.10 gears you'll need for 33" tires? Same size U-joints as well? You do gain a little bit with the size of the axle tubes and larger ball joints and brakes tho. Your not going to find a Waggy D44 with 4.10's in it, they usually had very high gears like 2.73's, so factor in roughly $1000 to change the gears, and another couple hundred to rebuild the rest of it, wheel bearings, hubs, brakes, ect, and the cost of the truss, and labor to weld it on, ect.... Then you still need to get a rear axle that matches, buy adjustable control arms so you can dial it all in.

 

I personally feel for 33" tires, the most cost effective thing would be a D30/8.8 combo. Both axles can commonly be found with 4.10's anywhere from free to maybe $250-$300 a piece. Slap on some new brake pads, maybe callipers, some new u-joints, roughly a 4.5" lift to clear the 33"s with minor trimming. BTW, a 4.5" lift up front and SOA in the rear with stock springs comes out pretty damn nice as far as height goes. And really the only fabrication you'll have to do is welding on new spring perches and shock mounts on the rear axle. Done! You could probably do all this in your driveway with basic tools, floor jack, and some jack stands for probably a grand.

 

And if your looking for F250 axles, HP44/D60, you better be running at least a 36" tire or you'll have a huge @$$ D60 diff dragging around everywhere you go. And these axles just make it more expensive as well! You'll probably have to have drive shafts built, swap in a brake booster and master cylinder that will work with 3/4ton brakes, and on and on.. Its way more involved than just bolting in some new axles!

 

Take a look at the last few pages of my build, feel free to ask questions. Axles are front and rear D60's from a Ford F350. I'm not saying this is the correct way to do it, and i'm not saying you need D60's, but i've done hours and hours of research on axles, suspensions, gear ratio's, ect... I'm doing 100% of the work myself, i'm building all the brackets, welding, painting, ect. I dropped $600 on a front D60, $250 on building the steering, $75 to build the track bar, roughly $400-$500 for everything I needed to build the control arms, and it goes on and on. I'm thinking with doing all the work myself when its all said and done i'll be pushing $3000 into this, and thats just a guess. And that is with already having tires, rims, and axle gears from another project...

 

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4375&start=120

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If you and your shop are lacking in experience, i would go with a HP Dana 30 and be done. You keep referring to the 44 front, but if its PS drop it won't work without a lot of modification. Either find a later waggy front as has been stated already, or go Dana 30 and be done. Also if you plan on running 33's on a 4.5 inch lift i hope you plan on cutting. My 92 had a 5 inch lift an cleared 32's but i would need to cut for 33's

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I had 4.5" front lift with 33x12.50s and had problems. 33x10.50 should be doable, and 33x9.50 on the stock rims will fit inside the wheel wells.

 

A Ford 8.8 is a great axle for the rear, but a 29 spline 8.25" from a 97 or newer Cherokee is plenty strong for 33" tires, and again, the drive shaft will bolt right to it. Brakes will work without modification and is the correct width (8.8 is 1.5" or so narrower). Find one with a 4 cylinder and it will have 4.10 gears also. Go SOA with it for ~5" lift and will be a fine match for a 4.5" lift in the rear, especially with 2wd rear spring which are 1" less than the 4wd springs.

 

As for the front, forget about the Waggy 44,and get a high pinion 30 off a 4 cylinder/5 speed Cherokee so it will have 4.10 gears. Swap in axle shafts off a Grand Cherokee (but not the CV shafts), any Cherokee with ABS, or any Cherokee 97 and newer to get the stronger u joints and you're done.

 

No money spent on a truss, no money spent on regearing, no money spent on any fabrication on the front axle, and only perches and shock mounts (<$70) to be welded onto the rear axle (which cost me $25 at a local to me welding shop). Another $30 or so for new u bolts, and the rest of your money can go toward the 4.5" front lift kit to match the SOA rear.

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As for the front, forget about the Waggy 44,and get a high pinion 30 off a 4 cylinder/5 speed Cherokee so it will have 4.10 gears. Swap in axle shafts off a Grand Cherokee (but not the CV shafts), any Cherokee with ABS, or any Cherokee 97 and newer to get the stronger u joints and you're done.

Yet you still have a weak axle housing, weak ring and pinion, fewer and more costly highsteer options, non-serviceable wheel bearings, no lockouts, small brakes, etc....

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I need guidance more than anything because even my shop isn't well experienced with the axle swap.

 

This will not end well... I would seriously reconsider your plans and just find an XJ or MJ D30 to put under for now until you do more research. Did you know that a Wagoneer D44 is a low pinion axle while you can get a HP D30 from an XJ or MJ that is just as strong and bolts in with no mods and can pretty easily be found with the 4.10 gears you'll need for 33" tires? Same size U-joints as well? You do gain a little bit with the size of the axle tubes and larger ball joints and brakes tho. Your not going to find a Waggy D44 with 4.10's in it, they usually had very high gears like 2.73's, so factor in roughly $1000 to change the gears, and another couple hundred to rebuild the rest of it, wheel bearings, hubs, brakes, ect, and the cost of the truss, and labor to weld it on, ect.... Then you still need to get a rear axle that matches, buy adjustable control arms so you can dial it all in.

 

I personally feel for 33" tires, the most cost effective thing would be a D30/8.8 combo. Both axles can commonly be found with 4.10's anywhere from free to maybe $250-$300 a piece. Slap on some new brake pads, maybe callipers, some new u-joints, roughly a 4.5" lift to clear the 33"s with minor trimming. BTW, a 4.5" lift up front and SOA in the rear with stock springs comes out pretty damn nice as far as height goes. And really the only fabrication you'll have to do is welding on new spring perches and shock mounts on the rear axle. Done! You could probably do all this in your driveway with basic tools, floor jack, and some jack stands for probably a grand.

 

And if your looking for F250 axles, HP44/D60, you better be running at least a 36" tire or you'll have a huge @$$ D60 diff dragging around everywhere you go. And these axles just make it more expensive as well! You'll probably have to have drive shafts built, swap in a brake booster and master cylinder that will work with 3/4ton brakes, and on and on.. Its way more involved than just bolting in some new axles!

 

Take a look at the last few pages of my build, feel free to ask questions. Axles are front and rear D60's from a Ford F350. I'm not saying this is the correct way to do it, and i'm not saying you need D60's, but i've done hours and hours of research on axles, suspensions, gear ratio's, ect... I'm doing 100% of the work myself, i'm building all the brackets, welding, painting, ect. I dropped $600 on a front D60, $250 on building the steering, $75 to build the track bar, roughly $400-$500 for everything I needed to build the control arms, and it goes on and on. I'm thinking with doing all the work myself when its all said and done i'll be pushing $3000 into this, and thats just a guess. And that is with already having tires, rims, and axle gears from another project...

 

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4375&start=120

 

Thanks for all the advice and guidance. Let me throw a few things out in the open that I have ready and you tell me what you think then.

 

Here's some pictures of my Waggy D44.

 

You can see that I pulled both axles out of that Waggy. I believe the gear ratio is 3.07, I don't know much about gear ratio but will that work with my tires? I realize that the rear Waggy axle pumpkin is not in the middle. But luckily in a junk yard today I found a mid 90s Isuzu Rodeo 4WD V6 with a D44 rear in it. I discussed it with my shop and they're thinking of removing the "guts" from the Waggy rear and putting it in the Rodeo rear, making it the same gear ratio? After that I'll be purchasing the SUA 4.5" lift from HellCreek, it seems nice and I spoke with them today. I've also contacted TNT Customs and they said the Waggy axle I have should be good.

 

Here's a picture of the Isuzu Rodeo rear I found today.

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As for the front, forget about the Waggy 44,and get a high pinion 30 off a 4 cylinder/5 speed Cherokee so it will have 4.10 gears. Swap in axle shafts off a Grand Cherokee (but not the CV shafts), any Cherokee with ABS, or any Cherokee 97 and newer to get the stronger u joints and you're done.

Yet you still have a weak axle housing, weak ring and pinion, fewer and more costly highsteer options, non-serviceable wheel bearings, no lockouts, small brakes, etc....

 

Can you explain this a little more? Are you saying the Waggy is weak or the D30?

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I had 4.5" front lift with 33x12.50s and had problems. 33x10.50 should be doable, and 33x9.50 on the stock rims will fit inside the wheel wells.

 

A Ford 8.8 is a great axle for the rear, but a 29 spline 8.25" from a 97 or newer Cherokee is plenty strong for 33" tires, and again, the drive shaft will bolt right to it. Brakes will work without modification and is the correct width (8.8 is 1.5" or so narrower). Find one with a 4 cylinder and it will have 4.10 gears also. Go SOA with it for ~5" lift and will be a fine match for a 4.5" lift in the rear, especially with 2wd rear spring which are 1" less than the 4wd springs.

 

As for the front, forget about the Waggy 44,and get a high pinion 30 off a 4 cylinder/5 speed Cherokee so it will have 4.10 gears. Swap in axle shafts off a Grand Cherokee (but not the CV shafts), any Cherokee with ABS, or any Cherokee 97 and newer to get the stronger u joints and you're done.

 

No money spent on a truss, no money spent on regearing, no money spent on any fabrication on the front axle, and only perches and shock mounts (<$70) to be welded onto the rear axle (which cost me $25 at a local to me welding shop). Another $30 or so for new u bolts, and the rest of your money can go toward the 4.5" front lift kit to match the SOA rear.

 

Awwww.... People keep telling me to forget about the Waggy D44, is it really that difficult to install correctly, or is it the limitations. Is there anything good about my Waggy D44? Check out the pictures, its a drivers side drop.

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As for the front, forget about the Waggy 44,and get a high pinion 30 off a 4 cylinder/5 speed Cherokee so it will have 4.10 gears. Swap in axle shafts off a Grand Cherokee (but not the CV shafts), any Cherokee with ABS, or any Cherokee 97 and newer to get the stronger u joints and you're done.

Yet you still have a weak axle housing, weak ring and pinion, fewer and more costly highsteer options, non-serviceable wheel bearings, no lockouts, small brakes, etc....

 

High pinion D30 gears are no weaker than low pinion D44. And people underestimate the D30. I run mine locked on 35s, and have abused it off road monthly. Have had it bouncing up to three feet high on multiple occasions doing hill climbs, still straight. And if you do want to truss it, it will still be less than the $475 for the Waggy truss will all the needed suspension attachment points added to it. Parts are cheap and plentiful also, unlike the Waggy.

 

The weak link in the 30 is not the housing, not the gears and not the shafts. It's the unit bearings.

 

The problem with the Waggy 44 is not that it is difficult to swap in, it is expensive to swap in. $475 for the truss, let's say $100 to have it welded on, $500 to $1000 to have it regeared, and you've spent between $1000 and $1500 after which you still need new wheels because of the different bolt pattern.

 

I can get a high pinion 30 with the larger shafts for $200 cash and carry any day, ready to be installed. I can get spare shafts 7 days a week for $20.

 

The same four yards that have a combined total of 5 Comanches, 30+ Cherokees and even more Grand Cherokees have exactly two full size Wagoneers, one if which is a passenger side drop. So one driver side drop Waggy 44 for let's say fifty D30s (some will be 2wd). Plenty of them are high pinion and plentry will have the larger shafts. I imagine the rest of the country is about the same.

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As for the front, forget about the Waggy 44,and get a high pinion 30 off a 4 cylinder/5 speed Cherokee so it will have 4.10 gears. Swap in axle shafts off a Grand Cherokee (but not the CV shafts), any Cherokee with ABS, or any Cherokee 97 and newer to get the stronger u joints and you're done.

Yet you still have a weak axle housing, weak ring and pinion, fewer and more costly highsteer options, non-serviceable wheel bearings, no lockouts, small brakes, etc....

 

High pinion D30 gears are no weaker than low pinion D44. And people underestimate the D30. I run mine locked on 35s, and have abused it off road monthly. Have had it bouncing up to three feet high on multiple occasions doing hill climbs, still straight. And if you do want to truss it, it will still be less than the $475 for the Waggy truss will all the needed suspension attachment points added to it. Parts are cheap and plentiful also, unlike the Waggy.

 

The weak link in the 30 is not the housing, not the gears and not the shafts. It's the unit bearings.

 

The problem with the Waggy 44 is not that it is difficult to swap in, it is expensive to swap in. $475 for the truss, let's say $100 to have it welded on, $500 to $1000 to have it regeared, and you've spent between $1000 and $1500 after which you still need new wheels because of the different bolt pattern.

 

I can get a high pinion 30 with the larger shafts for $200 cash and carry any day, ready to be installed. I can get spare shafts 7 days a week for $20.

 

The same four yards that have a combined total of 5 Comanches, 30+ Cherokees and even more Grand Cherokees have exactly two full size Wagoneers, one if which is a passenger side drop. So one driver side drop Waggy 44 for let's say fifty D30s (some will be 2wd). Plenty of them are high pinion and plentry will have the larger shafts. I imagine the rest of the country is about the same.

 

The truss is listed at 169$, why did you say 475$; is it because of the extra add ons? And I actually do not have and wheels right now I used the stock 5 lug for something else. And since the axle is at 3.07 do I need to have it re-geared? I'm going to use the 3.07 gears for the rear too. Unless that's a horrible idea. :doh:

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$169 is for the bare truss. After adding the options you need (lower control arms, both upper control arms, sway bar brackets, track bar bracket) it totals $475. And for that money it still will not fit the axle as it is a passenger side diff.

 

3.07 with 33" tires is a horrible idea. With 4.0 and automatic transmission it's even a bad idea for stock size tires. with the 4.0 and manual transmission it is barely adequate for stock size tires.

 

You want at least 4.10. If you're going to pay someone to regear, go with 4.56.

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High pinion D30 gears are no weaker than low pinion D44.

Just because high pinion gears run on the correct side of the tooth in a front application does not make a SMALLER ring and pinion stronger than a LARGER ring and pinion. Especially as gears get deeper and pinions get smaller.

 

The weak link in the 30 is not the housing, not the gears and not the shafts. It's the unit bearings.

It is all of those, the least of which is the unit bearings. Sure the unit bearings don't last long with oversize tires, but they don't commonly fail on the trail, where axlehousings, axleshafts, and R&P's do fail.

 

Sure the Waggy axle is pricey to swap into a coil spring application, what axle upgrade isn't? That's why a person may as well spend a little more and narrow a high pinion axle with a heavier housing. And the TNT truss isn't the only answer to installing a d44 front axle, Ballistic Fab is a good affordable option.

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After ~ 15 trips off road, abusing my locked 30 on 35s, spinning tires in mud, bouncing the axle on hill climbs and the wheels jerking violently on high traction surface while the rear is stuck in or behind something, I have had no problem with the gears or the tubes and not broken any shafts. But I'm replacing unit bearings every few months. I did stretch an ear on a stub shaft causing it to spit out the u joint cap, and on one 5-760x joint I eventually cracked two caps after which I lost the needle bearings, but the cross was still intact. Regardless, the u joints on the Waggy 44 are no stronger, as I believe they are the same joints (297/760) and the stub shafts ate barely any thicker.

 

Guys on pirate are, in their words, "beating the $#!&amp; out of" high pinion 30s on 35" tires without breakage as well. I see absolutely no reason to go to a 44 for 33" tires, and I see absolutely no sense in going to a low pinion 44 instead of a high pinion 30. I know of a 30 running Warn shafts and CTM u joints that buster two ends off the cross on the u joint. If you insist on needing a 44 you might as well build the ultimate: Ford high pinion 44 shortened to Waggy width, using Waggy inner shafts, Chevy Flat top knuckles and Ford outers and brakes.

 

On top of that neither the OP, nor the shop he's using seem to know much what is needed to fit a different axle under a Comanche.

 

Now if you want a Waggy 44 under there just to have a Waggy 44 under there, then that's all that will do.

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