Brown Betty ('86 AMC Eagle)

[jpnjake]

10 hours ago, acfortier said:

I'm glad I took it! Apparently, the magic combo is torque converter, flexplate + starter. Can't mix and match from pre-'88 and post-'88 (apparently, this was when they swapped starters to the newer style).

 

So, had a new NSS and newer style starter in hand, started to tackle the rest. My stepdad was able to put the transmission cooler fitting on (that he broke) yesterday. I swapped out the NSS no problem, then removed the old starter. Here's a picture of the old style starter that was installed:

 

As you can see, just has the one post for the cable to connect to. Here's the newer style starter that I got:

 

 

Which has the extra post. Since my Eagle uses a Ford style 4-terminal starter solenoid, I realized I need to jump the ignition switched 12V to that post down on the starter now. Had to run back out to get some ring terminals, and was able to connect it up and see if I resolved my ability to crank the engine in any gear...

 

aaaaaand still able to crank in any gear, and no reverse lights. So clearly, there's something going on. Got a test light, was getting 12V to the correct terminal at the NSS. Perfect. Taking a look at a diagram, it seems that the middle terminal of the NSS is blue w/ tracer that connects back at the starter solenoid. OK, cool--was just looking at that:

 

 

(Ignore the Romex in there. Apparently a PO used it to wire up a subwoofer/amp in the trunk... wild lol). So, big terminal on the left side goes to the battery, big terminal on the right side goes to the starter, small terminal towards the bottom (green wire and the red one I added) is the ignition 12V+, and the top is the "I" which one wire goes into the cab (uhhh?) and the other to the dizzy. No sign of any blue w/ tracer... I took a crap photo, but you can see it off on the right, and it had a right-angle plug on it.

 

Clearly someone bypassed the NSS at some point in time. Wonderful. Here's a picture of the starter diagram for the 6 cyl:

 

So, let's hook it back up--there should be a ground post for the NSS to connect to... except... there isn't. Someone replaced the starter solenoid with a manual transmission one, which grounds through the bracket, which seemingly bypasses the NSS. GREAT!

 

I have a feeling that someone was chasing down a no crank situation, as the original NSS in the car was chewed up/rubbed down internally, decided to replace the starter solenoid in a troubleshooting attempt or did it to bypass it completely.

 

Not a huge deal as I doubt the inspector would actually test the functionality of the NSS, but still no reverse lights. I *think* it's independent of the NSS actually working, but didn't have a chance to troubleshoot further. Will need to put the car in reverse, run an alligator clip from the NSS connector to the correct pin on the NSS, then use a test light to see if the other pin has 12V at it. If it does, there's a downstream wiring issue (bulbs could theoretically both be out?). If not, then the NSS is bad (which seems unlikely since it's brand new).

 

I do think I will probably replace the starter solenoid with the correct AT version instead of the MT one they installed. Here's what it should look like:

 

 

There's that spark-plug looking ground post. Here's what I have now:

 

 

No ground post. So I assume if I get the correct solenoid, and plug in the NSS plug, it'll work as intended. The bracket on the solenoid with the ground post must not be a ground, like it is for the solenoid for a MT.

 

Either way, it's not a real blocker, let's see if she runs and drives! Filled up the T/C all of the way, and put 5 qts in the transmission. Got it started, put it in gear, let the wheels spin (was still up in the air at this point), and got it warm. Decided we should take it for a spin around the block to make sure everything is OK.

 

As I was lowering the front, my stepdad noticed that while in Park, the rear wheels were still spinning. Huh, odd. He shut it off before we continued to lower it down. He asked about the bolt that holds the shifter rod in place, if it was ever tightened. I couldn't remember, so I checked--it was tight, so should be good. Continued to lower the vehicle down, and went to go back it out to take it for a spin...

 

...when we realized that while in "Park" (according to the shifter), it is actually in reverse. And so on and so forth--until it reached 1/2 and it wouldn't go any further. Need to adjust the shifter rod back more, if possible--it was at the end, so will have to take a closer look.

 

Anyways, we could still put it in R, N, and D, so we took it for a spin, started to slip going between R and D before we got out of the driveway, so added some more fluid, and took it around the block.

 

It lives! No issues with slippage at all, and no major problems with what we've changed so far. Thanks again @jpnjake for the transmission--it works beautifully.

 

Oh, also--the exhaust was pretty much cut off around the T/C and had been blowing directly on the now-mangled speedo cable, so instead of risking more heat-related issues, I bought a 90 degree elbow to turn it down right past the crossmember. And I mean right past--it was a tight fit.

 

Found out the the thermostat housing and upper radiator hose were both leaking, but have both parts (one already here, another on the way). I think the coolant temp. sending unit is also bad--the gauge cluster shows it 3/4 of the way up in the green section no matter what.

 

That was it for the night, but the list gets somewhat shorter!

 

Wow that’s quite the adventure, I’m super glad the trans is working out so well. Plus now it’ll sound like a 4.0 while cranking now 

[89 MJ]

1 hour ago, acfortier said:

I wonder if someone bypassed that one, too. Lol.

 

Yeah, it's kinda rats-nest-y but it's not terrible. Most connections are intact--there's an orange wire there that was cut at some point, so not sure what that goes to, if anything.

I’ll take a look at mine this weekend and see what I have for colors on it. 

[eaglescout526]

I see there’s one starter relay left as NOS for an auto trans. Not sure if it’s the same across the board for a SJ/CJ to an Eagle. 

[89 MJ]

51 minutes ago, eaglescout526 said:

I see there’s one starter relay left as NOS for an auto trans. Not sure if it’s the same across the board for a SJ/CJ to an Eagle. 

After checking part numbers across eBay, it looks like its the same. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same as some Ford product too. I know Fords used a very similar starter solenoid. 

[acfortier]

Yeah, it's probably the same starter solenoid across a multitude of vehicles. I'm not bothering with NOS for this, for the most part... but it is tempting, lol.

[eaglescout526]

3 minutes ago, acfortier said:

but it is tempting, lol.

Dirt cheap if new ones aren’t under $25. 

[acfortier]

2 minutes ago, eaglescout526 said:

Dirt cheap if new ones aren’t under $25. 

$28 from O'Reilly's... heh

[89 MJ]

It's even cool to have NOS parts just on the shelf ready to go

[acfortier]

You've convinced me... let me know if it's something that you can get @eaglescout526. I also definitely need a thermostat, which I'm 99% sure is the same as the one in the 4.0. Jury is out if the temp. gauge is bad, or the temp. sensor is.

[eaglescout526]

Shoot me a PM. I am able to get the last relay, it’s located at a dealer in IL. 

[acfortier]

Hmm, with the new starter, since the solenoid is actually attached to the starter, I don't think hooking up the NSS to the correct starter solenoid with the ground post will actually make a difference.

 

Here's the diagram for an '88 MJ, which is the same starter I currently have:

 

The NSS grounds through a starter relay, which I assume is just a standard 5 pin relay? So I'll need to put a relay in between the new starter solenoid and the old one (that has the 12V+ from ignition) in order for the NSS to work correctly... @eaglescout526, may not need that NOS starter solenoid after all?

 

[acfortier]

 

OK, so I think if I replace my current some-what useless starter solenoid with this: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHSR3?impressionRank=4

 

I'll have a similar setup as above, and should be golden?

[eaglescout526]

32 minutes ago, acfortier said:

need that NOS starter solenoid after all?

Ehh. I’ll hang on to it then. Unless someone else at the time needs it. But I’ll have it when you need it. 

[acfortier]

13 minutes ago, eaglescout526 said:

Ehh. I’ll hang on to it then. Unless someone else at the time needs it. But I’ll have it when you need it. 

Thanks. @89 MJ might want to snag it?

 

Now, I actually figured out what I need--a starter relay from a 1989-1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer. This will allow me to keep the function of the NSS with the newer style starter that has the solenoid on the starter itself, and will allow me to connect to the coil/dizzy. 33003934 seems to be the part number... any NOS for that @eaglescout526?

[89 MJ]

I think I’m good on a starter solenoid for now. 

[eaglescout526]

54 minutes ago, acfortier said:

33003934 seems to be the part number... any NOS for that

Right part number, there’s 3 left. 

[89 MJ]

I went out to the Eagle today. No luck on getting pictures. I couldn’t get under or in it with how it’s parked. 

[acfortier]

4 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

I went out to the Eagle today. No luck on getting pictures. I couldn’t get under or in it with how it’s parked. 

No worries--I have the vacuum lines tucked close to the transmission, so I'm hoping they won't move and get sucked in by the driveshaft, lol

[acfortier]

Replaced the thermostat, housing, and radiator hoses the other day. Coolant was extremely rusty, but that’s really it, so I guess that’s a good thing?

 

 

Got everything connected, and started to fill the radiator back up, turned it on to get the thermostat to open—it just wouldn’t stay running. Even giving it throttle to rev higher, it was just running poorly and died on me like several times. Never had an issue with it running, so not sure what was going on—let it sit for like 5 mins and tried starting it again, and it idled like it had before, no issues. We did run it out of gas (oops) so maybe something got sucked up? Really odd.

 

Anyways, got up to temp, put in more water/coolant until it wouldn’t take anymore. Unfortunately, the coolant turned back to its rusty color, even from what I did add. Never dealt with rust this bad, so I’ll have to do some research.

 

Another things, the temp gauge in the cluster reads incorrectly. When the thermostat finally opened, it was at the very end of the green portion, pretty much on H. If you turn the key to RUN after it’s been sitting/cold, the temp gauge will shoot up more than halfway.

 

I also noticed that the gas gauge was “waffling” after I put a quarter tank in—it’d move from a quarter tank back down to its resting spot (which is way below E) and then move back again rapidly.

 

I’m thinking it’s a bad ground on the cluster, which I haven’t taken out yet. I did buy a spare because the clock is missing the knob to change the time (broke off of mine) and that would annoy me if I didn’t have it, lol.

[eaglescout526]

20 minutes ago, acfortier said:

Another things, the temp gauge in the cluster reads incorrectly. When the thermostat finally opened, it was at the very end of the green portion, pretty much on H. If you turn the key to RUN after it’s been sitting/cold, the temp gauge will shoot up more than halfway.

Knowing AMC, this is probably a ground issue somewhere between the ignition switch and the ground. If AMC did the wiring the same way on our Jeeps which I would think they did. 
 

21 minutes ago, acfortier said:

I also noticed that the gas gauge was “waffling” after I put a quarter tank in—it’d move from a quarter tank back down to its resting spot (which is way below E) and then move back again rapidly.

Check the float. It could be bad to where it’s taking on gas and reading incorrectly. 

[89 MJ]

The gas gauge just does that. It’s almost as if the tank has no baffles. 

[acfortier]

16 hours ago, eaglescout526 said:

Knowing AMC, this is probably a ground issue somewhere between the ignition switch and the ground. If AMC did the wiring the same way on our Jeeps which I would think they did. 

Yeah, this probably makes the most sense. I'll have to see if I can track down the grounds and improve them.

 

47 minutes ago, 89 MJ said:

The gas gauge just does that. It’s almost as if the tank has no baffles. 

Interesting. To me, the way it moves, it doesn't seem like it's actually gas sloshing around, but like an electrical issue. Like it's reading one second, and not the next. I tried to take a video of it going back and forth, but of course, as soon as I started recording, it wasn't doing it, lol

[acfortier]

Tackled some more re-wiring of the starter relay. Started with this:

 

 

* Red w/ yellow - goes to the distributor

* Red w/ blue - goes to the cab. Traced it all the way back down to where it "spliced" in. It connected to the battery and upshift light on the cluster (wut?) and what I assume is the power pin on the clock in the cluster. Why? I have no idea. I took them all apart and will tackle that later down the road.

* Yellow spliced w/ white+red w/ tracer - these are on the "I" post, which is the one that goes to the ignition coil. I have no idea what they are for, or why they are there--but the red w/ tracer wire is not copper and the insulation is like gummy... I think this is a resistance wire that was used for the CEC/MCU circuit?

 

@89 MJ, would you happen to have a chance to snag a picture of your engine bay, specifically your starter solenoid?

I do have a HEI distributor, so I wonder if these are no longer needed/used. I did hook them back up, but to the 12V+ battery terminal on the starter relay, and nothing went KABOOM when I went to go start it.

 

Continuing on in the first picture...

* 4 gauge goes to the starter

* Red w/ weatherproof blue - goes to the starter solenoid on the starter

* Green w/ clear spade - goes to the ignition switch

And the rest goes to the battery.

 

So swapped out that solenoid with the relay, connected it all back up, and everything seems OK (didn't snag a picture of it, will do that today). Engine turned over, but didn't start it--got a coolant leak at the hose on the water pump outlet... Hoping I don't have to change the water pump.

 

 

[89 MJ]

14 minutes ago, acfortier said:

@89 MJ, would you happen to have a chance to snag a picture of your engine bay, specifically your starter solenoid

Yes I can! It’ll be about a week though before I’m back to the car. 

[acfortier]

 

1 hour ago, 89 MJ said:

Yes I can! It’ll be about a week though before I’m back to the car. 

 

Actually, don't need it! Figured it out. Went to go start it today, it would fire, and immediately die. Did some more troubleshooting on those weird spliced wires.

 

 

The yellow wire was for the original coil, and the weird red w/ tracer has to be the resistance wire in the image above. I found another cut yellow wire further in the harness, and doing a continuity test from where the yellow wire terminated at the starter relay to the cut one further back, it's the same wire.

 

Spliced the red resistance wire onto the same wire that is now going to the HEI distributor, and we're all good. Fires right up.