Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 I'm hoping someone who knows more about house wiring than me can help me out. Our house is old enough it has the bonded ground and neutral bar and I'm almost positive this is the cause of my issue. We put up our backsplash today and I found out that touching the mortar and chassis of the electric stove gives a shock. I put the multimeter between the stove and mortar and it read 140V. I realized the mortar was touching the outlet mounts on the wall. Cleaned the mortar away from the outlets and microwave brackets but am still getting 40V on the mortar. 140V still directly on the outlet mounts. I'm assuming that since the neutral and ground are bonded in the panel, it's causing the ground in the stove to find neutral/ground in the house through the outlet mount. But then again the outlet mounts aren't connected to ground as the wiring in the house doesn't have a ground. I'm utterly confused as to what is going on but I'm worried to push the stove back against the wall and having current flowing through the mortar. I'm hoping it won't be conductive after fully drying. Any help or advice is welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Dzimm said: I'm hoping someone who knows more about house wiring than me can help me out. Our house is old enough it has the bonded ground and neutral bar and I'm almost positive this is the cause of my issue. We put up our backsplash today and I found out that touching the mortar and chassis of the electric stove gives a shock. I put the multimeter between the stove and mortar and it read 140V. I realized the mortar was touching the outlet mounts on the wall. Cleaned the mortar away from the outlets and microwave brackets but am still getting 40V on the mortar. 140V still directly on the outlet mounts. I'm assuming that since the neutral and ground are bonded in the panel, it's causing the ground in the stove to find neutral/ground in the house through the outlet mount. But then again the outlet mounts aren't connected to ground as the wiring in the house doesn't have a ground. I'm utterly confused as to what is going on but I'm worried to push the stove back against the wall and having current flowing through the mortar. I'm hoping it won't be conductive after fully drying. Any help or advice is Most likely the stove is providing the ground to panel. The problem is at one of the wall outlets. Are the wall outlet boxes made of metal (conductive) or bakelite? If metal, the hot line is touching the box. Hopefully, you cleaned motar from inside the box. Did you pull outlet out of box during your project? If so, when you put it back in the box, the hot lead might be in contact with the box. Check for that. If that is not case, the hot wire may have a bare spot on the hot where it enters the box and is providing current to the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Manche757 said: Most likely the stove is providing the ground to panel. The problem is at one of the wall outlets. Are the wall outlet boxes made of metal (conductive) or bakelite? If metal, the hot line is touching the box. Hopefully, you cleaned motar from inside the box. Did you pull outlet out of box during your project? If so, when you put it back in the box, the hot lead might be in contact with the box. Check for that. If that is not case, the hot wire may have a bare spot on the hot where it enters the box and is providing current to the box It is for sure the outlets and yes they are in metal boxes. I actually found the boxes to have a wire attached to them that runs into the wall. I'm assuming this is an attempt at grounding the boxes themselves, which would make them theoretically also neutral. During the project the outlets were in the boxes and mortar only touched the ears of the outlet mounts. The boxes are recessed in the wall due to multiple layers of drywall. I've got 2 receptical circuits in the kitchen and both have power to the mortar. One is only 5-10v, the other is in the 40v range unless the breaker is turned off (leaving that breaker off for now). Another question, is it okay to have a microwave powered from a leg of the stoves 220v circuit? That's how it was wired up (220v plug on the floor, 120v wire runs up to microwave from the plug) but I wasn't sure that's okay and disconnected it during troubleshooting as the microwave had power to mortar too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dzimm said: It is for sure the outlets and yes they are in metal boxes. I actually found the boxes to have a wire attached to them that runs into the wall. I'm assuming this is an attempt at grounding the boxes themselves, which would make them theoretically also neutral. During the project the outlets were in the boxes and mortar only touched the ears of the outlet mounts. The boxes are recessed in the wall due to multiple layers of drywall. I've got 2 receptical circuits in the kitchen and both have power to the mortar. One is only 5-10v, the other is in the 40v range unless the breaker is turned off (leaving that breaker off for now). The wire attached to the boxes should be ok. Is it bare and part of the jacketed cable also containing the black, hot, and white neutral? Or is it a separate wire that is green? Possibly white. If part of the cable it should run to the panel. If separate, jackleg probably grounded it to cold water pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Manche757 said: The wire attached to the boxes should be ok. Is it bare and part of the jacketed cable also containing the black, hot, and white neutral? Or is it a separate wire that is green? Possibly white. If part of the cable it should run to the panel. If separate, jackleg probably grounded it to cold water pipe. They are separate from the other wires. One is white and attached to the underside of the box, the other two are brown and attached to the very back of the box on the inside. I'm used to the typical Romex and organized wiring. So far this house has been a bunch of cobbling and a complete mess of old wiring so I wouldn't be surprised if they ground to a pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, Dzimm said: I've got 2 receptical circuits in the kitchen and both have power to the mortar. One is only 5-10v, the other is in the 40v range unless the breaker is turned off (leaving that breaker off for now). I assume you mean two outlets on same circuit. Low voltage indicates poor connection. In this case, poor conductivity to hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Second question about tapping into 220 line is bad news. Let solve other issue first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Manche757 said: I assume you mean two outlets on same circuit. Low voltage indicates poor connection. In this case, poor conductivity to hot. There are 3 receptacals touching the backsplash, 2 circuits. Just checked and no continuity between the box and the water pipes or any other metal under the sink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 By attached to back of box, do you mean back of inside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 Hot to water pipes is 120v though so that's great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dzimm said: There are 3 receptacals touching the backsplash, 2 circuits. Just checked and no continuity between the box and the water pipes or any other metal under the sink. Breakers on or off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Manche757 said: By attached to back of box, do you mean back of inside? Back of inside yes. And bottom of underside of another, pried the bottom of the box up to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Manche757 said: Breakers on or off? Off. I'm using an extension cord from another circuit to test with a separate hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 I am not clear we are on same page, lets play this safe. Pick the most likely circuit. Take off cover plates and pull recepticles ou of wall. Then turn that breaker on. Now see if you show a hot box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 The grounding wire is energized somewhere along the line. It energizes all boxes it is connected to. The problem has likely been there prior to your backsplash project. It was noticed becuase of the wet mortar. Flip breakers one at a time and isolate the circuit with the corruption then look for the ground to hot contact in that circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaterComanche86 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 I’m going to guess that one of the Receptacle boxes is pinching the hot wire at the connector causing that box to become hot and since there is a separate “ground” connecting all the boxes to the water pipe the current is traveling through that. Find the first receptacle in that circuit and disconnect the splices going to the next one that way you can isolate it and find which wire is being pinched. Also when you get the funds I would look into getting a new panel that will actually trip when the wires short out, SERIOUS fire hazard. Even with your neutral and ground sharing the same bar your panel should trip a circuit if there’s a short. Does your stove share that same “ground” as the plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 54 minutes ago, BeaterComanche86 said: I’m going to guess that one of the Receptacle boxes is pinching the hot wire at the connector causing that box to become hot and since there is a separate “ground” connecting all the boxes to the water pipe the current is traveling through that. Find the first receptacle in that circuit and disconnect the splices going to the next one that way you can isolate it and find which wire is being pinched. Also when you get the funds I would look into getting a new panel that will actually trip when the wires short out, SERIOUS fire hazard. Even with your neutral and ground sharing the same bar your panel should trip a circuit if there’s a short. Does your stove share that same “ground” as the plugs? It is a new panel with all new everything. The wiring however is subpar at best. The stove only has the normal wires it should going to it but who knows what's behind the wall, the wire comes out of the drywall and there is spray foam around it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 8 hours ago, Manche757 said: I am not clear we are on same page, lets play this safe. Pick the most likely circuit. Take off cover plates and pull recepticles ou of wall. Then turn that breaker on. Now see if you show a hot box I did this for all the kitchen breakers but when I turn one off, it's boxes no longer are energized but another circuits boxes are. I suppose I could have 2 shorts? I'll go through and try every breaker in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dzimm said: I did this for all the kitchen breakers but when I turn one off, it's boxes no longer are energized but another circuits boxes are. I suppose I could have 2 shorts? I'll go through and try every breaker in the house. There is no short but instead the grounding wire is picking up current somewhere. What is not known is how many boxes the grounding wire is hooked to. You will need to go by process of elimination to find the contact. Earlier, you indicated that you have two brown wires along with is likely a grounding wire. How old is your house? Was it built before 1940? It might have knob and tube wiring. Conductors were both black (could have faded to brown.) One is hot and the other neutral and they look the same. Do you have black and white conductors or two old ones that are same color with thick insulation that looks kind of like cloth/asphalt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Manche757 said: There is no short but instead the grounding wire is picking up current somewhere. What is not known is how many boxes the grounding wire is hooked to. You will need to go by process of elimination to find the contact. Earlier, you indicated that you have two brown wires along with is likely a grounding wire. How old is your house? Was it built before 1940? It might have knob and tube wiring. Conductors were both black (could have faded to brown.) One is hot and the other neutral and they look the same. Do you have black and white conductors or two old ones that are same color with thick insulation that looks kind of like cloth/asphalt? Definitely no knob and tube, it was built in 1967. The wires are a black and white in the black/silver insulation. In the picture you can see the random white wire coming into the bottom of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Before 1969, grounds were not required but might have been there. Often in the 60's grounds were on the bathroom circuits but not for the rest of the house. In the 60's, the ground wires were allowed to be of a smaller gauge wire. That is no longer allowed. I assume your state follows the BOCA code. How many conductors are in the gray jacketed cable feeding from the top? Black and white with no bare ground? Can you lift the black cable coming out of the box and take a pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Cut off the paper insulation before you retake pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Cut off the paper insulation before you retake pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manche757 Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Thanks. Turn the breaker off to that circuit. With your tester, check to see that the outlet is off. Then using your tester, touch the box and the white neutral side. What reading are you getting on your tester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzimm Posted June 17, 2019 Author Share Posted June 17, 2019 35 minutes ago, Manche757 said: Thanks. Turn the breaker off to that circuit. With your tester, check to see that the outlet is off. Then using your tester, touch the box and the white neutral side. What reading are you getting on your tester? Zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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