Steering Box "Upgrade"

[Tex06]

Been wanting to snag a steering box at the local pull a part for when I do my intake and exhaust systems swap. So far I'm almost confused but narrowed down to two options :

 

1. ZJ 93-96 box (12.7:1 steering, fixed ratio, same range lock to lock, no stronger than stock unit, bolts directly in)

 

2. Dodge Durango '99 only? (ratio unknown, fixed ratio, range lock to lock unknown, beefier than stock unit, maybe a direct swap?) also a pita to pull I hear.

 

The local yard has someone who comes and grabs all the ZJ steering boxes, I found one yesterday from 13 carcasses. There were though about 3 Durangos, all untouched.

 

Does anyone know the details on the Durango boxes? I'd like the quicker steering and am planning on running larger tires and beadlocks once I start wheeling this thing. Basically does a 12.7:1, fixed ratioDurango box exist?

 

My current setup is I believe stock as lock to lock is around 3.5 turns and it's definitely variable.

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

[Zebvance]

I have a 99 durango box. Bought a rebuilt unit from the parts store. I would not put it on there with out buying or building a reinforcement bracket for it. Many companies make them now. I think I got a JCR one. Also its not a 100% bolt in. It requires some additional spacing between the "frame" and the box. I just stacked grade 8 washers until it fit. Honestly Its prolly worth the money in time and effort to buy a refurbished one and use your stock gear box as a core. Swapping boxes is not fun at all and I would pay to make the work easier. The same I time that I swapped the box I also did serious offroads 1 ton steering swap. I can't go full turn now cause the steering hits my diff cover. so I can't tell you if you gain any turning ratio. All I know is my turning got worst. Alot worst from the upgrades. Mainly because of the steering though. Not the box. I can't tell any difference from the box. It was in fact bigger than the stock box though....

[Tex06]

I have a 99 durango box. Bought a rebuilt unit from the parts store. I would not put it on there with out buying or building a reinforcement bracket for it. Many companies make them now. I think I got a JCR one. Also its not a 100% bolt in. It requires some additional spacing between the "frame" and the box. I just stacked grade 8 washers until it fit. Honestly Its prolly worth the money in time and effort to buy a refurbished one and use your stock gear box as a core. Swapping boxes is not fun at all and I would pay to make the work easier. The same I time that I swapped the box I also did serious offroads 1 ton steering swap. I can't go full turn now cause the steering hits my diff cover. so I can't tell you if you gain any turning ratio. All I know is my turning got worst. Alot worst from the upgrades. Mainly because of the steering though. Not the box. I can't tell any difference from the box. It was in fact bigger than the stock box though....

Yeah, I'm going to reinforce the frame there because there's a good chance I'll crack it otherwise.  Not too worried about the actual install, I've got a lift and all the goodies that come with it.  I just want to know for sure what my options are before I put in the work.  I'll probably pull the ZJ box today, if it doesn't get used on the MJ, I can always swap it into a muscle car later.  

 

Was steering any quicker?  I know with all the mods it was probably difficult to tell.  Or any idea if it's fixed ratio or variable?

[Zebvance]

 

I have a 99 durango box. Bought a rebuilt unit from the parts store. I would not put it on there with out buying or building a reinforcement bracket for it. Many companies make them now. I think I got a JCR one. Also its not a 100% bolt in. It requires some additional spacing between the "frame" and the box. I just stacked grade 8 washers until it fit. Honestly Its prolly worth the money in time and effort to buy a refurbished one and use your stock gear box as a core. Swapping boxes is not fun at all and I would pay to make the work easier. The same I time that I swapped the box I also did serious offroads 1 ton steering swap. I can't go full turn now cause the steering hits my diff cover. so I can't tell you if you gain any turning ratio. All I know is my turning got worst. Alot worst from the upgrades. Mainly because of the steering though. Not the box. I can't tell any difference from the box. It was in fact bigger than the stock box though....

Yeah, I'm going to reinforce the frame there because there's a good chance I'll crack it otherwise.  Not too worried about the actual install, I've got a lift and all the goodies that come with it.  I just want to know for sure what my options are before I put in the work.  I'll probably pull the ZJ box today, if it doesn't get used on the MJ, I can always swap it into a muscle car later.  

 

Was steering any quicker?  I know with all the mods it was probably difficult to tell.  Or any idea if it's fixed ratio or variable?

 

 

If it is faster it was not noticeable. Not sure on fixed or variable. Sorry I don't have more answers for you..

[DirtyComanche]

I think the Durango box is 3 turns, but the ratio is the same, it just has larger internal stops.  Basically, you might not hit your axle stops anymore and instead bottom out the piston in the box.  I did not consider it a viable candidate because of this.

[75sv1]

There are internal stops in the Durango box, that can be removed. I am rebuilding one. There is a metal 'C' clip, that gets removed and some spacer post on the aluminum end cap that get removed. From reading the various threads, some people lose turning radius others don't. Some gain it back with a longer pitman arm. Removing the stops helps, according to what I've read. Other say upgrading to the WJs power steering pump helps a bunch.

[Lee21490]

I have a durango steering box + WJ PS pump. Works pretty well.

 

First thing i noticed it a loss of PS power after the swap, So i got the WJ pump.

 

I got full steering on my truck, But just barely. If i align my steering wheel straight, I'd loose full turning :doh:

[Eagle]

Been wanting to snag a steering box at the local pull a part for when I do my intake and exhaust systems swap. So far I'm almost confused but narrowed down to two options :

 

1. ZJ 93-96 box (12.7:1 steering, fixed ratio, same range lock to lock, ...

The factory XJ and MJ box is 14:1 and 3-1/2 turns lock-to-lock. The 12.7:1 ZJ box is 3 turns lock-to-lock.

 

I have a ZJ box in the 2001 XJ, and the factory box in my wife's 2000 XJ. The only time/place I notice any difference is when backing up and turning 90 degrees in the driveway. On the road I don't notice any difference whatsoever.

[mikekaz1]

Unless it was free, and even still, the 1/2 a turn savings doesnt seem worth the hassle of the swap.

[Eagle]

Unless it was free, and even still, the 1/2 a turn savings doesnt seem worth the hassle of the swap.

I agree. The '01 steering box had been trashed by a previous owner and couldn't be adjusted, so I had to replace it anyway. If I had it to do over, I'd go to AGR Steering and buy a 10:1 box. (Which would NOT be good for large tires and rock crawling.)

[Tex06]

I'm more interested in getting rid of the variable steering. The 1/2 turn would be great to get rid of, esp since I'm currently running a Grant GT steering wheel.

[mikekaz1]

Sorry I'm lost on what you mean by variable steering?

[Tex06]

Variable ratio steering vs fixed ratio steering. Variable is very good for daily use, very bad on the trail. The stock box is variable ratio.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering_ratio

[mikekaz1]

if the stock MJ/XJ box is variable why is the only listed ratio 14:1? if it was variable wouldnt it show a range?

[Eagle]

Variable ratio steering vs fixed ratio steering. Variable is very good for daily use, very bad on the trail. The stock box is variable ratio.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering_ratio

The stock XJ/MJ box is 14:1, fixed ratio. 3-1/2 turns lock-to-lock.

[Tex06]

 

Variable ratio steering vs fixed ratio steering. Variable is very good for daily use, very bad on the trail. The stock box is variable ratio.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering_ratio

The stock XJ/MJ box is 14:1, fixed ratio. 3-1/2 turns lock-to-lock.

Can you show me where you got this? All of the forums I've read so far and the way my MJ turns (visual check only, not measured) have confirmed variable.

 

 

It's way to early for Google, but here is a quick link for later model XJ, I believe the box is the same for all years.

http://pma4x4.com/2012/02/1996-01-jeep-cherokee-xj-steering-gearbox-upgrade/

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

[Tex06]

Also checked Autozone. Same P/N for 90 and 00 XJ. 7525, only says 3.3 turns lock to lock. I'll measure mine once I pull it and confirm, but that's a ways out yet.

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

[mikekaz1]

It's way to early for Google, but here is a quick link for later model XJ, I believe the box is the same for all years.

http://pma4x4.com/2012/02/1996-01-jeep-cherokee-xj-steering-gearbox-upgrade/

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

Its my knowledge that is entirely wrong. J trucks HAD a variable steering box.

[mikekaz1]

OK. So with some minor googling. I have found that while yes some jeeps had "variable steering" this was done at the steering PUMP not the steering BOX. The boxes are ALL fixed ratio, whether 14:1 or 12.7:1. Some jeeps were outfitted with a pump with an electric actuator placed next to the top hydraulic line that dependent on speed would restrict fluid output to the box. Causing a drop in assist (tighter steering) the faster you go, helping oversteer and similar at highway speeds.

[Eagle]

Can you show me where you got this?

I got it from the factory service manual. I checked the 1988, 1994, and 2000 FSMs. [Note that the very early XJs had a 17:1 fixed (not variable) option as part of the off-road package. I've never encountered one -- ever.]

 

The only way for me to "show" you would be to scan or photograph the page, upload it to Photobucket, and then post a link to the image. I don't have time for that. You can either accept my word that's what it says ... or not.

[Tex06]

OK. So with some minor googling. I have found that while yes some jeeps had "variable steering" this was done at the steering PUMP not the steering BOX. The boxes are ALL fixed ratio, whether 14:1 or 12.7:1. Some jeeps were outfitted with a pump with an electric actuator placed next to the top hydraulic line that dependent on speed would restrict fluid output to the box. Causing a drop in assist (tighter steering) the faster you go, helping oversteer and similar at highway speeds.

This was the variable assist power steering. There will be an electrical connection on the power steering pump for a solenoid that controls pump pressure based on vehicle speed.

 

Higher speed, lower pressure, steering is less sensitive.

Lower speed, higher pressure, steering is easier.

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

[Eagle]

OK. So with some minor googling. I have found that while yes some jeeps had "variable steering" this was done at the steering PUMP not the steering BOX. The boxes are ALL fixed ratio, whether 14:1 or 12.7:1.

As I commented above, the 1988 FSM shows an optional 17:1 fixed ratio power steering box that was included in the off-road package. I don't know what year that option was discontinued.

 

The 1994 FSM shows power steering boxes in 14:1 and 12.7:1 fixed ratios, plus a 13-17:1 variable ratio. BUT ... the 1994 FSM covers more vehicles than just the XJ, and the book doesn't tell which vehicles or models were equipped with which box. There are 2-letter codes for each, stamped into the top of the box. My guess would be that the short wheelbase Wrangler got the variable ratio, so the steering wouldn't be as "twitchy" over center on the highway.

 

The 2000 XJ FSM shows only the 14:1 fixed ratio box.

 

{EDIT TO ADD}

 

I did a bit of research through the parts manuals. Let's just say that it's a bit more complicated than "There's only one box for all the years."

 

1988-1990 XJ/MJ parts manual: XJ/MJ Part No. 5200 2737

 

1991-1993 parts manual: . . . XJ/MJ Part No. 5203 8002

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ZJ . .Part No. 5208 7753 or

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5208 7754

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .YJ . .Part No. 5203 8003

 

1994-1996 parts manual: . . . . YJ . .Part No. 5203 8003

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 5203 8002 ... '94

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 5203 8408 ... '95

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 5208 8015 ... '96

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ZJ . . . . . . . . 4 different boxes listed, depending on options

 

1997-1999 parts manual: . . . . XJ . . . . . . . . 5208 8386 ... '97

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 52088 386AB ... '98

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 5208 8532 ... '98

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 52088 386AD ... '99

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .XJ . . . . . . . . 52088 532AH ... '99

 

2000 XJ Parts Manual: . . . . . . XJ . .Part No. 52088 386AC

 

2001 XJ Parts Manual: . . . . . . XJ . .Part No. 52088 386AC

 

No ratios listed, other than a couple in the export listings (which I didn't try to reproduce)

[mikekaz1]

 

OK. So with some minor googling. I have found that while yes some jeeps had "variable steering" this was done at the steering PUMP not the steering BOX. The boxes are ALL fixed ratio, whether 14:1 or 12.7:1. Some jeeps were outfitted with a pump with an electric actuator placed next to the top hydraulic line that dependent on speed would restrict fluid output to the box. Causing a drop in assist (tighter steering) the faster you go, helping oversteer and similar at highway speeds.

This was the variable assist power steering. There will be an electrical connection on the power steering pump for a solenoid that controls pump pressure based on vehicle speed.

 

Higher speed, lower pressure, steering is less sensitive.

Lower speed, higher pressure, steering is easier.

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

Yes. So the steering boxes are all fixed ratio. Its the pumps that are variable. So even swapping to a ZJ 12.7:1 box. Won't make you variable or non. Its the pump that determines this.

[Tex06]

I found a post on VW vortex that I think clears things up since some folks seem to be confused about variable ratio steering vs variable assist steering.

 

Copied from VWVORTEX.com

:

Um, I feel like people are talking about different things.

 

Variable assist is one thing, where the effort varies, lighter for low speed, parking lot maneuver and heavier for at speed. The ratio of the steering does not change(degree of turn for steering wheel vs degree of steer for road wheel).

 

Variable ratio can be fixed or actually variable. Cars like the new GTI comes with a variable ratio, which is done by physically having different pitch on the rack. Slower on center, faster near the limit.

 

 

Some cars now also have active steering(IIRC BMW was the first on road car? from E90?) There is a fixed rack, but IIRC there is a gearbox between the column and the rack itself that varies the ratio between the steering input and the amount of wheel steer. The relation is largely depending on programming, and I assume there is a fail-safe position.

 

If you have a purely steer by wire setup like Q50 I think the gearbox/steering column in that case just gets replaced by a motor and it actuate the rack based on the signal output by the steering wheel.

 

And all of the above can still have variable assist...

[Tex06]

 

Link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7247895-Variable-ratio-steering-for-boneheads-who-don-t-know-how-to-drive-Good-idea-or-no

 

Sent from atop the porcelain throne.

 

Variable assist comes from changing the amount of pressure (the power steering pump with a solenoid on it) going to the system.

 

Variable ratio steering means that when I turn the wheel X degrees, I get a Y degree change when straight but a Z degree change coming of the locks, regardless of how much effort I am putting into it.

 

This change in wheel speed is bad for offroading as it makes it difficult to judge how much input you need to move an exact amount.... Which can lead to broken stuff.