Arm-chair Fabricators

[terrawombat]

Perhaps we can discuss here so as not to distract or discourage potential designers/fabricators/inventors from coming up with new product ideas for our aging trucks?

 

I think we can do it...let's give it a shot.

 

I'll start.  I think it was unfair of Don to call anyone in the rear bumper thread an "arm-chair fabricator" when I saw no evidence of malicious intent, unless there were posts I was not privy to (my e-mail notification shows me each message and I didn't see anything).  The thread has since been deleted so it's hard for me to really say.  Most posts were merely offering suggestions on how to make the product more robust.  We did not have the inside information that Bo and Brandon had that the product was not yet complete and there were additional gusset braces being added to it.

 

Sure, we might not be the blue collar worker who is getting his hands dirty and fabricating these pieces, but that doesn't mean we can't offer suggestions on how the product can be improved.

[shelbyluvv]

I didn't call anyone an "armchair fabricator". Don did. I took Ben's input and was happy to about the seam. I was also going to post about the gussets. Then the thread got derailed. That thread was going the exact same direction as every other hitch thread this Forum has ever had. You will die, kill a bus load of orphans or your MJ will explode if you use that for pulling.

 

I did delete the post, I got tired of the same old trash every single time a new product comes out. What happened to JCR's support? Yep there was enough complaining that they stopped producing MJ parts.

 

We are our own downfall. A member comes on board to help build $#!& we need and the wolves attack the minor details.

[terrawombat]

Sorry - I went back through my e-mails to try and gather who said what, but didn't see any response from Don, but since the thread was deleted it's very difficult to go back and fact-check.  I'll edit my OP accordingly.  Again, I apologize for the mix-up.

 

Also, I edited my post in that thread too to retract all legal statements that I made on John's advice so as not to derail the thread.  We can put the blinders on when it comes to this kind of stuff and that's okay, but there are serious legal ramifications that come with fabricating hitches.  I've already looked into it - I talked to a legal expert in the field.  I guarantee that's more than anyone fabricating these products has done.  Brandon's "company" (Scarborough Hitches) does not appear to be registered as an LLC.  That's also not good for his own sake.

 

It's a shame what happened to JCR and I don't know the full history of it, but there is a stark difference between complaining and constructive criticism.  I deal with it every single day at my place of work.  The complainers are exactly that - complainers.  At first people listen to their complaints, but they slowly become the boy who cried wolf and their opinions become devalued.  Those with constructive criticism can see an issue and then provide a solution.  Complainers = arm-chair fabricators.  The latter are just trying to do their part and help out in any way they can.  I might not be able to weld as well as Brandon, but I can certainly help him with design and 3D CAD models (offer still stands).

[89eliminator]

I guess I see things different. Is it awesome that a person or company takes the time to develop MJ product? Absolutely! But I think it's fair for people to question/recommend ways to improve something ESPECIALLY with it being in the prototype phase. I saw the pics and immediately thought that I would never buy that bumper based off the mounts just butt welded to the box tubing. Luckily, gussets will be added so that reverses my opinion.

[shelbyluvv]

I didn't say constructive criticism is not welcome. That is why I post the pics as the build was progressing. It is when lawyers and lawsuits get tossed around that it went off the rails.

 

JCR had a sloppy hitch, people bitched and they pulled the product. The hitch threads went on for years with no end in sight until Brandon took the challenge on. I see this going the same way. He has plans to build front bumpers as well. Or he did.

[89eliminator]

I guess I missed the part about the lawyers and lawsuits.

[HOrnbrod]

Glad this was reincarnated. I'm grateful to Krusty for all he's done and will continue to do and will support him 100%.  My reasoning for the "armchair fabricators" comment was to kill the unneeded suggestions, warnings, and the negativity that was starting temporarily at least until a prototype was presented. It was going in the same direction as the the original hitch threads went. And that was nowhere. I didn't want that to happen again.

 

Just leave the guy alone until the prototype is ready for a critique. That's usually how it works.

[krustyballer16]

i guess i missed all of this because i honestly have no idea what is going on or what went on...

 

I'm not sure how everyone took any of my comments. but i wasnt saying everyone's input and opinions didnt matter. but I'm guessing everyone assumed it wasnt suitable for much with how it was made so far. 

 

i build Otis elevators for a living. so i know all that important stuff.

and i also wouldnt build anything i wouldnt put on my jeeps. i use my front bumper (an older nates bumper) a lot! so i know what i need to build to withstand my torture and go from there.

 

and its good that everyone has their own amount of good ideas! ill listen to it all! with this being my first bumper and set of sliders I'm still learning.

 

thanks for all the support from everybody. 

id like to help everybody as much as possible! 

[terrawombat]

I guess I missed the part about the lawyers and lawsuits.

Because I pulled it based on JJ's advice. It's still a very real issue and the fact that everyone wants to sweep it under the rug in order to keep new MJ products moving along is quite disturbing and frankly it's downright selfish.

 

Brandon I'll give you two pieces of legal advice when selling anything with a trailer hitch on it and then I'll never speak on it again since its a very sensitive subject for some, for whatever reason:

 

1. Form an LLC and sell your products under that

2. Add a disclaimer to any hitch product that it has no class rating and is not designed to haul a single pound and all responsibility falls on the end user. Put your products on a website and make it so that the purchaser agrees to this disclaimer.

 

OK - that's it.

[terrawombat]

Glad this was reincarnated. I'm grateful to Krusty for all he's done and will continue to do and will support him 100%. My reasoning for the "armchair fabricators" comment was to kill the unneeded suggestions, warnings, and some negativity that was starting temporarily at least until a prototype was presented. It was going in the same direction as the the original hitch threads went. And that was nowhere. I didn't want that to happen again.

 

Just leave the guy alone until the prototype is ready for a critique. That's usually how it works.

I guess the issue was the bumper was presented as a final product with no indication there was additional work going into it other than maybe paint.

 

From what I've seen thus far is Brandon has been very willing to listen to ideas and critques and has taken them in stride. This is a very admirable trait and one that will get him very far in his career path. Designs and ideas are going to be critiqued and picked apart in any industry and being able to navigate through the good and bad ideas is part of being a quality designer. Getting upset because people are allegedly making fun of your baby (see ugly baby syndrome) is part of what makes a poor designer.

 

I see Brandon as the former which is why I was a little surprised to see the original bumper thread deleted because it contained a lot of really good discussion. Oh well.

[terrawombat]

I didn't say constructive criticism is not welcome. That is why I post the pics as the build was progressing. It is when lawyers and lawsuits get tossed around that it went off the rails.

 

JCR had a sloppy hitch, people bitched and they pulled the product. The hitch threads went on for years with no end in sight until Brandon took the challenge on. I see this going the same way. He has plans to build front bumpers as well. Or he did.

But all of that talk got edited out to keep the focus on the design so why just do a knee jerk reaction and delete the whole thread?

 

I now remember the loose sloppy fit if the receiver tube. Was that really the only reason they pulled the whole product? If so that's sounds pretty pathetic considering their customers had an issue with their product. And their customers were right. If their response to the customer complaint was to pull the product entirely...well that's just poor business, but I also don't know what comments were made and how they were made. Somehow I don't think it was a very civilized discussion.

[shelbyluvv]

I didn't see the edits.

[johnj92131]

 None of us wanted to see what happened to the old thread happen again.

 

That was what I took as the main point in Wombat's post,  I made a smart @$$ comment about the words "arm chair fabricator", then when I read Wombat's post - I edited my post and suggested Wombat might want to edit his post.  Exactly what he did, promptly.  We cleaned up our comments very quickly, which is why most of you did not see them.

 

Bo, was not aware of the edits when he took action.  So now you all know the full story. 

[Incommando]

[HOrnbrod]

I came in here hoping to learn how to build my own lay z boy.....

 

:clapping: :clapping:  Excellent.

[terrawombat]

I'm only able to comment on how that lay-z-boy would be made.  I won't actually make one, though....for legal reasons, of course.