KSjeepguy88 Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Hey guys! This is my first post on here. Ok so. I have an 88 comanche 4.0l base model. I just swapped to the open cooling system and I installed an E-fan and removed my fan clutch. I just but the belt back on as is and went with it. Well now my fan pulley bearing is going out and it sounds like a dieting cat. Now could I route the belt by" over the Power steering, under the crank, up and over the water pump, down to the Alternator, up to the AC, down to the idler pulley, and back to the Power steering? So I could just by pass the fan pulley? I don't see a problem but just wanted some input if someone's done this already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yxmj Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Just a guess but you will have too much belt.... :???: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 You can use a 6 rib x 2045mm serpentine belt (Bando 6PK2045 or equivalent) and route it this way: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSjeepguy88 Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 Thank you hornbrod, I work at O'reilly auto parts so I will play around with some belts, I will let you know when I get this done! Thanks guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Thank you hornbrod, I work at O'reilly auto parts so I will play around with some belts, I will let you know when I get this done! Thanks guys A little Dremel grinding is required on a corner of the alternator bracket and some metal above the 0* timing mark for belt clearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSjeepguy88 Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 Hornbrod. If I did it the way I Mentioned earlier would I have to grind anything tho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Like the below? Yes, I think you would have to grind off the nub on the timing chain cover where the timing marks are. Depends on what cover you have though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 You can use a 6 rib x 2045mm serpentine belt (Bando 6PK2045 or equivalent) and route it this way: That doesn't give the belt much "grab" on the alternator pulley. Doesn't it slip if you turn on a lot of stuff that draws big current? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Funny you should mention that Eagle. This is not my truck, but a guy I know on the NAXJA forum. I asked him the same thing about the alternator when I was looking at ways to reroute my belt with the 01 intake manifold and 97 steering pump. He said it's not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Funny you should mention that Eagle. This is not my truck, but a guy I know on the NAXJA forum. I asked him the same thing about the alternator when I was looking at ways to reroute my belt with the 01 intake manifold and 97 steering pump. He said it's not a problem. If that's not a problem ... he's not trying hard enough. I can see how a set of four roof-mounted trail lights, paired with upgraded headlights, and a winch would really tax the alternator, and I don't think that tiny contact patch would be up to the task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 30% belt wrap around the OD of a pulley is the minimum for a serpentine belt. And since the alt pullley is so small (a little over 2" in dia) it spins at a high RPM. It's a bad angle on the pic, but that doesn't look like 30% belt wrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiatslug87 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Thiis is not my truck... That goes without saying, I think we all know that could not be your truck. Not enough spit and polish. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 30% belt wrap around the OD of a pulley is the minimum for a serpentine belt. And since the alt pullley is so small (a little over 2" in dia) it spins at a high RPM. It's a bad angle on the pic, but that doesn't look like 30% belt wrap. The load on the pulley does not change with regard to alternator RPM, because the voltage regulator determines load regardless of RPM. Therefore whereas high alternator RPM does not help, higher engine RPM would increase linear belt speed and would thereby reduce slippage. What does matter is the size of the contact patch between belt and pulley as well as the linear speed of the belt, and since linear speed of the belt is determined by the driving pulley and not the driven one, alternator RPM is immaterial. In this case a larger alternator pulley would offer a larger contact patch and thus reduce slippage... but then the alternator would be working itself harder to provide the same charge rate at less RPM (thus bad for the alternator). Best case would be to increase the amount of wrap of the belt around the pulley. I agree with Eagle's post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 30% belt wrap around the OD of a pulley is the minimum for a serpentine belt. And since the alt pullley is so small (a little over 2" in dia) it spins at a high RPM. It's a bad angle on the pic, but that doesn't look like 30% belt wrap. The load on the pulley does not change with regard to alternator RPM, because the voltage regulator determines load regardless of RPM. Therefore whereas high alternator RPM does not help, higher engine RPM would increase linear belt speed and would thereby reduce slippage. What does matter is the size of the contact patch between belt and pulley as well as the linear speed of the belt, and since linear speed of the belt is determined by the driving pulley and not the driven one, alternator RPM is immaterial. In this case a larger alternator pulley would offer a larger contact patch and thus reduce slippage... but then the alternator would be working itself harder to provide the same charge rate at less RPM (thus bad for the alternator). Who said anything about alternator load? Belt wrap is the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Actually, no, belt wrap is not the problem discussed here, expected alternator pulley slippage is. Minimal belt wrap is the potential contributing cause. Funny you should mention that Eagle. This is not my truck, but a guy I know on the NAXJA forum. I asked him the same thing about the alternator when I was looking at ways to reroute my belt with the 01 intake manifold and 97 steering pump. He said it's not a problem. If that's not a problem ... he's not trying hard enough. I can see how a set of four roof-mounted trail lights, paired with upgraded headlights, and a winch would really tax the alternator, and I don't think that tiny contact patch would be up to the task. . I did take note of your minimum 30% wrap comment - that info was new to me - thank you. But if I ever get around to designing a serpentine belt accessory drive, I'll be sure to dig a bit deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Who said anything about alternator load? Belt wrap is the subject. I did. The load on the alternator doesn't depend on the alternator RPM, but the load on the alternator sure as hell increases as you increase the amperage draw on the system. A heavy load makes the alternator pulley work a LOT harder. And that's when that minimal contact patch probably won't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Who said anything about alternator load? Belt wrap is the subject. I did. The load on the alternator doesn't depend on the alternator RPM, but the load on the alternator sure as hell increases as you increase the amperage draw on the system. A heavy load makes the alternator pulley work a LOT harder. And that's when that minimal contact patch probably won't cut it. Oh. Then maybe Oyaji should have quoted you above, not me. :yes: Speaking about alternator RPM Eagle, when you get a chance could you measure the diameter of the stock alternator pulley on your late model XJ with the Denso alternator? I think the 7-rib pulley I'm using on my 136A ZJ V8 alternator is bigger than the 6-rib XJ pulley. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Who said anything about alternator load? Belt wrap is the subject. I did. The load on the alternator doesn't depend on the alternator RPM, but the load on the alternator sure as hell increases as you increase the amperage draw on the system. A heavy load makes the alternator pulley work a LOT harder. And that's when that minimal contact patch probably won't cut it. Oh. Then maybe Oyaji should have quoted you above, not me. :yes: Shoot - I would have quoted both of you if I could, but I am having difficulty getting the finer points of the forum to work for me. I can't even get paragraphs to space properly without including a period on the blank line between them! Multiple quotes only work for me if the post I quote includes quotes within the post I quoted (in example, see the quotes above). . Don't be so touchy - we are all on the same team, right? Though I am new here, I am rapidly getting to recognize some of the names of the guys who have valuable advice to share. I am sure to be drawing upon it as soon as I have the need. I wish I had Comanche specific knowledge to contribute, but I hope the more general knowledge I do have to offer will prove helpful from time to time. If you hadn't yet noticed, I am stronger in the theoretical than the specific, but I hope that will prove to complement the wealth of knowledge on tap here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSjeepguy88 Posted September 14, 2013 Author Share Posted September 14, 2013 Like the below? Yes, I think you would have to grind off the nub on the timing chain cover where the timing marks are. Depends on what cover you have though. Dose anyone know what size belt to use for this why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSjeepguy88 Posted September 16, 2013 Author Share Posted September 16, 2013 I finally got some time and take off my belt from the stock location. I Routed the belt as it would go stock but I just skipped the the fan clutch puller The belt didn't touch any part of the alt. bracket, so it looks like I'm going to get the 6PK2045 belt like hornbord said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Hey, guys -- I just noticed that, between the photo in post #3 and the diagram in post #7, if you compare the two they won't have the water pump rotating in the same direction. Oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Hey, guys -- I just noticed that, between the photo in post #3 and the diagram in post #7, if you compare the two they won't have the water pump rotating in the same direction. Oops! The pumps in both are rotating ccw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 You're right, and I'm wrong (again). And I wasn't even drinking. Maybe that's the problem ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSjeepguy88 Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 I started with a Gates belt K060806 and it was WAY to small, I then went to a K060879 and it was 3 inches to big, I ended up with a K060849 and it seems to be right but I had to MAX out the power steering pump to get it tight and now my belt is sqweeking so I think I'm going to get 1 size smaller and I will let you know what the gates belt number is, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSjeepguy88 Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 I switched to a Gates belt "K060837". It is 13/16"x 84-1/4" belt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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