The future of Jeep...

[wallisek]

I took one look at that Phoenix mini and :ack:

[jpnjim]

 

Jeep has long been a crappy company no matter the overloards. Poor reliability and build quality along with cheaped-out parts are the norm, not the exception. It certainly applies to our rust prone MJ's with a myriad of issues from the day they were born (2.8/pukegoat/d35, ad nauseum). That isn't hating: it is reality. No one can look objectively at the history of jeep and see anything else.

 

 

 

I've driven nothing but Jeeps since 1994, and can count the times they left me stranded with two fingers...

 

my thumb and index finger together, forming a BIG ZERO.

 

 

Yep stuff I've abused has broken, but never enough to strand me.

 

Add to that my two daily drivers are far from spring chickens:

a 100% stock driver train 22 year old 89' MJ (currently parked, while the roads are salted)

and a 100% stock drive train 13 year old 98' XJ.

 

Neither engine, tranny, or axle has been under the knife for anything beyond a spark plug change.

 

I guess you also somehow missed all the 200-300k mile Jeeps on Craigslist. :dunno:

 

I'll take that level of unreliability any day.

[Joop]

If I ever win the lottery my first purchase would be the XK commander with a 3.0crd. 218hp and more importan 525nm at 1600-2000rpm (more than the hemi v8!) is enough to give me a hard one. Other than that I don't care much about new jeeps, the phoenix mini makes me :nuts: :ack: :doh: :wall: . And I would use the XK as a DD and tow rig for my MJ's :D .

[jpnjim]

I'd take the hp30/D44 axles under jK over a small-joint LP d30/D35 combo any day of the week.

 

XJ & MJ's never came with that combo.

 

Only one Jeep model ever got a "small-joint LP d30/D35 combo",

and it only did for it's non ABS/non CV shaft rarities during 2 model years,

till the upgrade to 297's.

 

 

On the other hand,

MJ's did get HP30's/D44's for 6 of it's 7 model years,

and I've never seen a pic of an XJ/MJ D30 with an exploded front axle tube. :dunno:

[jimmy21669]

Pre 96 Jeep is all I need....with the exception of the Rubicon TJ...

[Incommando]

I never claimed that this post was MJ/XJ specific... but jeep in general. I have owned ( and kept, not flipped) many jeeps. I have had Willys*, Kaiser, AMC, chrysler, and DaimlerChrysler era vehicles. Obviously I have an affinity for jeep, but that doesn't mean that I don't realize that the small-jointed LP D30 fronts on my various CJ's were a time-bombs once I put some bigger tires on them. They may have been fine with the 27" stock tires, and maybe jeep's real issues is putting stock tires on JK's that are nearly at the max of the axle's ability too start with?

 

And although D44 rears were available for most MJ years, they are apparently a little rare and the D35 was much more common. I have recieved PM's from nearby folks trying to buy my factory LSD D44 just because it is listed in my sig line. They are even less common in XJ's and it wasn't until the 29-spline 8.25 made its way into the line-up that a comparable rear was offered: even then, D35's were plentiful. The D35 isn't universally hated for no reason. The pukegoat trannies issues are not imagined.

 

I don't doubt that anyone has whatever mileage they have without issues: but any objective source lists a myriad of Jeep issues. No one mentions jeep as being better than Honda or yoder in reliabilty, but if every jeep went 200K with nothing but spark plugs you think you would hear such comparisions. I can't count the number of posts about being left stranded by CPS issues, or TPS issues (help! My jeep won't start!), or.... I have seen many unit bearings take a crap and seen D35's spit axles. The front page of tech has numerous posts talking about the weakness of the CAD/260 D30, even if it is HP. The Tech section of every jeep site is full of issues. I did not imagine the whole 4.0 exhaust issue: just because one person's jeep avoided it doesn't mean it wasn't an unaddressed factory issue for years. I drive and own/have owned many decades old vehicles that do not have the issues my MJ has: despite being 17 years older, the window regulators in my Road Runner somehow manage to still function perfectly, for example. Does that mean that any individuals jeep has not gone 200K with nothing but spark plugs being changed? Not at all. But it would seem that those are not the norm and far more people have to replace idler pulleys and such.

 

I wonder why a prominant member of this site extolls us all to pull up our carpet and check the floors "before it is too late?" Sounds like a repeating issue to me.

 

If every jeep would go 200K + miles with nothing but spark plugs, jeep dealers would all replace their service departments with quik lubes that also replaced spark plugs and save a ton on mechanic salaries.

 

A lot of this is personal preference: personally the early MJ/XJ brake system is IMHO terrible. I am not alone in this by the popularity of swap/upgrade posts even right here in CC. But to others it is apparently just dandy. :dunno: It is also dependent on what each individual is willing to accept: Heck, I drove a Festiva as a DD for 8 years!!! But being realistic about a vehicle does not mean you hate it.

 

 

 

* I can even correctly pronounce it :thumbsup:

[dasbulliwagen]

Fiat now owns about 25% of jeep. They have agreements to purchase another 10%. Unless something changes again, Fiat will not own Chrysler and, by extension, jeep.

 

In exchange for shares, Fiat manages Chrysler.

 

 

Fiat is in the works to own 51% of Chrysler, they have the options to do that, and are going for it, possibly by the end of this year. That will makle them the OWNERS outright.

 

These issues have been fought over time and time again, with each and every changing of the hands that Jeep has had. This one isnt going to be any different. If you like the new stuff, fine, if you don't, fine as well. Who cares! And reliabilty and tech issues abound for all makes, not just Jeep. I think that Jeeps popularity as an off road vehicle brings the bigger issues more into the spotlight than other brands that don't get used like the Jeeps do. I would have to say that there are a butload more Jeeps out there being modified and wheeled than there are Toyotas or Hondas as were mentioned. Jeeps popularity makes it much easier to start a popular forum to bring any issues to light and to get help. That doesnt mean that the other makes are any better or worse just because you don't hear about any problems. We just need to keep all this in perspective.

[jpnjim]

Different strokes for different folks I guess,

and different ideas of what reliable means.

 

Honda's are considered reliable,

but I can remember a friend's Honda's getting her 3rd, and then 4th 'Thousand dollar brake job' in the 1990's.

I could have bought an entire 'paycheck XJ' for the same money she spent on a single brake job.

 

and when an XJ did need a brake job, pads & rotors could be done in 45 minutes, for a weeks lunch money.

 

As far as rust in MJ's,

the fact that the NEWEST MJ in the entire world is now 19+ years old makes complaining about rust in them comical.

 

I honestly was next to a FS Chevy pickup in traffic last week, that looked to be only 4, or 5 years old.

There was swiss cheese above the entire drivers side rear tire. (I couldn't see if the pass side had rotted, but I'd guess it did too).

 

I don't know what Jeeps have to do to be proven reliable, if all the 200k+ mile examples out there can't sway you.

 

 

 

I'm 42, with a decent job.

If these Jeeps were so unreliable,

why would I risk my job by driving a 21 year old Jeep every day?

 

Change the oil once in a while, and try not to overheat it, a 4.0L will go 200-300+ thousand miles.

If you completely ignore the AW4 behind the 4.0L, it'll still outlast a couple of 4.0L's.

And 231's have passed the test of time, even if they are chain drive, with an aluminum case.

 

 

A stronger axle could've been used behind that stout drivetrain, but a change in ownership right after the 4.0L's were introduced killed the XJ D44 option after it's first model year (tho some did trickle out for 88 & 89).

The MJ luckily did keep the 44 till Chrysler put the last nail in their coffins.

 

The front HP D30 is actually a little stout axle, in the right context (even with 260's, mine survived bias 33" TSL's, on heavy steel wheels).

I'm surprised Chrysler didn't pull the HP30 too, since they deemed it more axle than the 500+lb heavier, V8 equipt ZJ, or the TJ needed.

 

I don't know why some people need to view anything old as unreliable,

but I just can't agree that the 4.0L/AW4 drivetrain is anything but rock solid.

[jpnjim]

I never claimed that this post was MJ/XJ specific... but jeep in general. I have owned ( and kept, not flipped) many jeeps. I have had Willys*, Kaiser, AMC, chrysler, and DaimlerChrysler era vehicles. Obviously I have an affinity for jeep, but that doesn't mean that I don't realize that the small-jointed LP D30 fronts on my various CJ's were a time-bombs once I put some bigger tires on them.

 

I've actually never seen a CJ break a 260.

The 5 & 6 bolt hubs always let go way before a maintained U-joint even thought about breaking.

 

They may have been fine with the 27" stock tires, and maybe jeep's real issues is putting stock tires on JK's that are nearly at the max of the axle's ability too start with?

 

The biggest issue is that when the CJ's hub exploded in a blaze of glory, you could still drive out on it.

When a JK's tube explodes, it's now tow truck time (if you are lucky).

 

And although D44 rears were available for most MJ years, they are apparently a little rare and the D35 was much more common. I have recieved PM's from nearby folks trying to buy my factory LSD D44 just because it is listed in my sig line. They are even less common in XJ's and it wasn't until the 29-spline 8.25 made its way into the line-up that a comparable rear was offered: even then, D35's were plentiful. The D35 isn't universally hated for no reason. The pukegoat trannies issues are not imagined.

 

I've had good luck with both the 35 & BA..

At one point I would even take a spare BA 10-5 with me wheeling, so I wouldn't have to hold back.

Closest I ever came to a failure when wheeling was when it got loud, and HOT on a trip to upstate NY.

I changed the gear oil on the side of the road (I had it with me for the spare tranny) and (luckily) it was fine after that.

 

D35's, I've broken 2,

both on the street (spider gears, and a R&P),

both times with larger than stock tires, my fault for abusing it,

and both times I drove it home.

 

I don't doubt that anyone has whatever mileage they have without issues: but any objective source lists a myriad of Jeep issues. No one mentions jeep as being better than Honda or yoder in reliabilty, but if every jeep went 200K with nothing but spark plugs you think you would hear such comparisions. I can't count the number of posts about being left stranded by CPS issues, or TPS issues (help! My jeep won't start!), or.... I have seen many unit bearings take a crap and seen D35's spit axles. The front page of tech has numerous posts talking about the weakness of the CAD/260 D30, even if it is HP. The Tech section of every jeep site is full of issues. I did not imagine the whole 4.0 exhaust issue: just because one person's jeep avoided it doesn't mean it wasn't an unaddressed factory issue for years. I drive and own/have owned many decades old vehicles that do not have the issues my MJ has: despite being 17 years older, the window regulators in my Road Runner somehow manage to still function perfectly, for example. Does that mean that any individuals jeep has not gone 200K with nothing but spark plugs being changed? Not at all. But it would seem that those are not the norm and far more people have to replace idler pulleys and such.

 

XJ's & MJ's are old.

My 87' XJ had the regulators fail in the ft windows, after 250K miles.

I swapped the rear regulators up front (and fronts to back),

since the rear windows didn't have to go down all the way, they didn't need the last inch of spring/coil thing that had rotted.

 

They did not outright fail, since there were warning signs as they were going (dead spot at bottom of travel).

The fix cost $0, other than a handfull of 1/4-20 nuts and bolts to replace the drilled out rivets.

 

That same XJ also had 3 (Bosch) fuel injectors start to leak, and the (GM) alternator froze up on a trail.

Neither seemed out of the ordinary to me for something with 250K+ miles.

 

 

I wonder why a prominant member of this site extolls us all to pull up our carpet and check the floors "before it is too late?" Sounds like a repeating issue to me.

 

Yep, poor design (reinforcing brace on the floor traps moisture),

not surprising they didn't redesign it on such a low production vehicle.

 

FWIW, rust issues aren't always an accident.

My 87' XJ had almost zero rust when it was 13-14 years old, and I stripped & junked it (I was done with it, and wanted the parts for other Jeep projects).

My 98's rockers rusted out after less than 10 years of the same roads & trails the 87 had seen.

 

Anything can happen with salted New England roads, but I'd have to lean towards Chrysler skiming on either the quality of steel later in the XJ's production, or the dip process they used for rust protection.

None of the rockers rotted on the 2 other 198x's XJ's, and 4 MJ's I've had.

The one rocker I replaced was due to a dent, and was rust free underneath.

 

If every jeep would go 200K + miles with nothing but spark plugs, jeep dealers would all replace their service departments with quik lubes that also replaced spark plugs and save a ton on mechanic salaries.

 

A lot of this is personal preference: personally the early MJ/XJ brake system is IMHO terrible. I am not alone in this by the popularity of swap/upgrade posts even right here in CC. But to others it is apparently just dandy. :dunno: It is also dependent on what each individual is willing to accept: Heck, I drove a Festiva as a DD for 8 years!!! But being realistic about a vehicle does not mean you hate it.

 

 

 

* I can even correctly pronounce it :thumbsup:

 

AMC era rotors & drums are far superior to later XJ rotors & drums,

it's just that the dual diaphragm booster is that much better.

 

I'd say the later master is much better too, except for they set back 50 years of engineering by combining both separate reservoirs into one single 'brake fluid tank'.

Great setup till one line leaks, and drains fluid out of both sides.

 

I guess what I'm saying is wait till anything you'd like to compare XJ/MJ's to hits 20-25 years old, and compare that to the complaints you are hearing on message boards today.

 

 

 

I don't take every opportunity to claim XJ's were the peak of modern design (they were not),

but I seem to spend a lot of time here reading how awful they were,

and that's not true either.

[xjrev10]

Id take a dodge caliber over a compass. I think they look better.. Put a diesel in any jeep and I would not care what it looked like...id have one.

[robfg67]

I've owned my MJ now for 38 months and it stranded me a total of ONE time-internal slave cylinder went while I was over 75 miles from home on a Sunday in the middle of the winter. Had to get her towed and paid a shop to fix her. :(

 

The other side of the story, is that she has been extremely reliable because I've also spent almost $10K in this time span to fix, replace, repair, & update just about every part you can think of! :ack: