camber issue

[f1tbiker6]

 

just got my truck back from my freind after they did the lift. he told me to go get it alligned. but i noticed the wheels look bent slightly outwards. what do i do now?

[aemsee]

Hard to tell from that picture. There is no camber adjustment per se on your truck (solid front axle), so a lift wouldn't change anything.. If there is a camber issue, you have something that is bent i.e. knuckle or axle tube, unless your friend put in offset ball joints. Get it on a machine and it will tell you.

[BLHTAZ]

Camber is adjusted by changing the castor/pinion angle. I can see that it is 2WD, but the process is still the same. It requires either adjustable control arms or shims that are used at the frame connection of the control arms. Anyone that knows what they are doing when aligning a lifted truck should be able to get you fixed up in a fairly short time. :cheers:

[Drahcir495]

I had the same problem. I fixed it using Napa adjustable camber shims. The write up on my camber fix is on page 7 of my build-up thread here -> http://comancheclub.com/forums/viewtopi ... c&start=90

At least you have another option if the alignment fails to correct your problem - Rich

[reson46]

Camber is adjusted by changing the castor/pinion angle. I can see that it is 2WD, but the process is still the same. It requires either adjustable control arms or shims that are used at the frame connection of the control arms. Anyone that knows what they are doing when aligning a lifted truck should be able to get you fixed up in a fairly short time. :cheers:

 

This is incorrect. I believe your are confusing your terms. Caster and pinion angle are adjusted by the control arms, but caster is completely unrelated to camber.

 

Camber angle can be visualized as the tilt of the top of the tire to the bottom when looking from the front of the vehicle.

 

Caster angle can be visualized as the tilt of the rotational axis of the tire when viewed from the side of the vehicle.

 

There is no camber adjustment on our vehicles.

 

Willy

[comancheman]

when i first did my lift my camber appeared to be way out. i did an alignment at wrk and set the toe back into spec and my camber looked fine after that. yours looks just like mine did after the lift. set the toe and then see how it sits

[maddzz1]

Is caster and toe the same thing?

[reson46]

Is caster and toe the same thing?

 

No, toe and caster are separate.

 

Willy

[BLHTAZ]

Camber is adjusted by changing the castor/pinion angle. I can see that it is 2WD, but the process is still the same. It requires either adjustable control arms or shims that are used at the frame connection of the control arms. Anyone that knows what they are doing when aligning a lifted truck should be able to get you fixed up in a fairly short time. :cheers:

 

This is incorrect. I believe your are confusing your terms. Caster and pinion angle are adjusted by the control arms, but caster is completely unrelated to camber.

 

Camber angle can be visualized as the tilt of the top of the tire to the bottom when looking from the front of the vehicle.

 

Caster angle can be visualized as the tilt of the rotational axis of the tire when viewed from the side of the vehicle.

 

There is no camber adjustment on our vehicles.

 

Willy

Not incorrect. When you change the Caster...Camber changes with it. Camber is adjusted by changing caster on a solid axle vehicle. Caster & pinion angle are the same thing. When you adjust a control arm or add shims to it for alignment, you are changing the caster/pinion angle and when you change that...the camber changes as well. You cannot adjust caster without changing the camber unless you remove and reposition the knuckles on the tubes. I have done this many times now and have learned the hard way that a very small caster change can have devastating results on expensive tires because of the change in camber that results :cheers: . I dropped my pinion/caster by 2 degrees and completely destroyed the outer half of my nearly new 35" Xterrains in 3 months :oops: .

[Eagle]

Not incorrect. When you change the Caster...Camber changes with it. Camber is adjusted by changing caster on a solid axle vehicle. Caster & pinion angle are the same thing. When you adjust a control arm or add shims to it for alignment, you are changing the caster/pinion angle and when you change that...the camber changes as well. You cannot adjust caster without changing the camber unless you remove and reposition the knuckles on the tubes. I have done this many times now and have learned the hard way that a very small caster change can have devastating results on expensive tires because of the change in camber that results :cheers: . I dropped my pinion/caster by 2 degrees and completely destroyed the outer half of my nearly new 35" Xterrains in 3 months :oops: .

Brent, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. Depending on the front suspension, caster angle and pinion angle may be related, but they are not the same. IF the front axle is a solid axle, like on an XJ or MJ, changing the caster angle will also change the pinion angle -- which is why vehicles with big lifts run into death wobble problems because they can't get enough caster without killing the front driveshaft u-joints -- but they aren't the same thing at all.

 

Moreover, the camber on an XJ or MJ is supposed to be zero (plus or minus 1/2 degree). With the specified caster angle 7 to 8 degrees, even if the camber is at plus or minus 1/2 degree rather than the ideal zero, that one degree of range in the caster isn't going to affect the camber by enough to even measure it.

 

The camber is not considered adjustable, and trying to adjust it by mucking around with the caster is an incorrect approach. The only "adjustment" possible or correct is the use of offset ball joints.

 

What actually changes more than camber when you change the caster is the toe-in, and that's more likely what caused the tire problems you mentioned.

[reson46]

Camber is adjusted by changing the castor/pinion angle. I can see that it is 2WD, but the process is still the same. It requires either adjustable control arms or shims that are used at the frame connection of the control arms. Anyone that knows what they are doing when aligning a lifted truck should be able to get you fixed up in a fairly short time. :cheers:

 

This is incorrect. I believe your are confusing your terms. Caster and pinion angle are adjusted by the control arms, but caster is completely unrelated to camber.

 

Camber angle can be visualized as the tilt of the top of the tire to the bottom when looking from the front of the vehicle.

 

Caster angle can be visualized as the tilt of the rotational axis of the tire when viewed from the side of the vehicle.

 

There is no camber adjustment on our vehicles.

 

Willy

Not incorrect. When you change the Caster...Camber changes with it. Camber is adjusted by changing caster on a solid axle vehicle. Caster & pinion angle are the same thing. When you adjust a control arm or add shims to it for alignment, you are changing the caster/pinion angle and when you change that...the camber changes as well. You cannot adjust caster without changing the camber unless you remove and reposition the knuckles on the tubes. I have done this many times now and have learned the hard way that a very small caster change can have devastating results on expensive tires because of the change in camber that results :cheers: . I dropped my pinion/caster by 2 degrees and completely destroyed the outer half of my nearly new 35" Xterrains in 3 months :oops: .

 

I think you are still having trouble differentiating between caster and camber. As Eagle stated, camber should be zero degrees on our axles. This is regardless of your caster angle or pinion angle - which are also not the same but related as Eagle stated. Your caster angle can be 7, 90, 180, 0 degrees, or anything else and your camber angle will be the same as long as your axle isn't bent or damaged in some other way.

 

Willy

[Drahcir495]

The only "adjustment" possible or correct is the use of offset ball joints.

Your idea of correct is different from mine. The other possible way to make the adjustment is with the Napa camber adjusting kit.

[CWLONGSHOT]

The only "adjustment" possible or correct is the use of offset ball joints.

Your idea of correct is different from mine. The other possible way to make the adjustment is with the Napa camber adjusting kit.

 

What is the deal with this kit?

I did a search onnthe NAPA site zilch, nada, nuttin. There are many "Camber kits" avalible, but I cannot see anything for the solid jeep axle.

 

Eagle is spot on with his explination of Castor/Camber.

 

Here is a couple quick links with appropriate pics. I havent read the text, but the pics represent what has been described here.

 

http://www.jeepfan.com/tech/CasterCamberToe.htm

 

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

 

Hope this can clear this up for everyone.

 

More important than who is correct or whom is not is finding and passing along CORRECT and ACCURATE information.

 

CW

[BLHTAZ]

Ya'll are saying the same thing that I am...just in a different way :roll: .

 

We are talking about a solid axle vehicle here so what I am saying is "IF" you change the caster/pinion angle...the camber will change. If you have a small camber issue, it can be resolved by a small adjustment to the caster/pinion, but that is not necessarily the best/proper way to do it.

 

If you have adjustable control arms and you change the length of the lowers, but not the uppers...you are changing the caster and in doing so it will change the camber.

 

I hope I have better defined the fact that I do know what I am talking about and that I do know the difference between Caster & Camber :brows: :cheers:

[aemsee]

Oh what the heck. Lets add more. Once again. Caster is referred to as ball joint inclination. It is the relationship between the upper and lower ball joints vs true vertical. If the upper joint is further back than the lower, this is positive caster. This is good for tracking, steering stability and return to center. Negative caster is just the opposite. Upper joint further forward than the lower. This is bad.

 

Camber is the tilt of the wheel, top to bottom in relationship to the vehicle and true vertical. In at the top is negative, out at the top is positive. / \ would be negative, \ / would be positive. An old crude mechanic told me to remember it this way. When you ask your lady for sex, if her answer is a positive one, her legs will do this \ /, if it is negative, they will do this / \. Not exactly PC, but there was no PC 25 yrs ago :D .

 

Since our trucks have solid axles, there is no built in adjustment for camber like a IFS vehicle may have. If it is at zero, and the wheel bolts to the hub, which bolts to the knuckle, which is hooked to the tube by the BJs, any change in caster by rotating the axle won't change camber because there was none to begin with. Take a old CD. Draw two dots on it 180 degrees apart. One is the upper BJ, the other is the lower. Hold the CD on edge perfectly vertical with the dots at 12 and 6 oclock. Now turn the dots to 1 and 7, It had no effect on the side to side tilt of the CD since it was at 0 degrees camber.

 

IF there was a camber angle, it would be affected by a caster change slightly. I have seen shims to place between the hub and knuckle to change camber. This would be to correct something that is bent.

Offset BJs would be the better method. I think you can get up to 1 1/2 degree offset. Anything more than that and you need to find the cause.

 

As I said before. Get it on a machine and see what is really going on.

 

Now if you want to get in to scrub radius, steering axis inclination, compliance steer......come to one of my classes.

 

 

Chrysler Training Center

Rochester NY

:D

 

Hey Brent, do you ever get over to the training center in Orlando for any reason?

[BLHTAZ]

 

Hey Brent, do you ever get over to the training center in Orlando for any reason?

Nope...didn't know there was one...

[Eagle]

The only "adjustment" possible or correct is the use of offset ball joints.

Your idea of correct is different from mine. The other possible way to make the adjustment is with the Napa camber adjusting kit.

Like CWLONGSHOT, I have never heard of a NAPA camber adjusting kit for the XJ/MJ. What is it, how does it work, and can you provide a part number? I'd be interested in checking it out.

[Eagle]

Hmmm ...

 

http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPages/N ... Suspension

 

Looks like an adapter to convert a standard upper ball joint into an adjustable ball joint.

 

[f1tbiker6]

when i got it aligned the camber looked normal so no more problems here.

[Drahcir495]

Like CWLONGSHOT, I have never heard of a NAPA camber adjusting kit for the XJ/MJ. What is it, how does it work, and can you provide a part number? I'd be interested in checking it out.

I first learned about them on NAXJA -> http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.p ... all+joints.

 

I used the Napa part number 264-2072 to correct my Negative 1.5/1.4 camber. - Rich

[Drahcir495]

Since our trucks have solid axles, there is no built in adjustment for camber like a IFS vehicle may have. If it is at zero, and the wheel bolts to the hub, which bolts to the knuckle, which is hooked to the tube by the BJs, any change in caster by rotating the axle won't change camber because there was none to begin with.

 

Chrysler Training Center

Rochester NY

:D

Maybe you can answer a question for me? How could lifting a solid axle vehicle cause the camber to change? :nuts: ?

I know that the design of the Rubicon Express lift w/Drop Brackets lifts the truck "x" amount and keeps the axle close to the stock position {just 1" forward and 5.5" down} . I just doesn't follow logic, but yet it is true :headpop: . {Disclaimer - I did toss in a new front Dana 44, but it uses the 30 outers and is said to be identical}

 

I am now thinking that the lift just exposed an existing problem? - Rich

[reson46]

Maybe you can answer a question for me? How could lifting a solid axle vehicle cause the camber to change? :nuts: ?

 

It doesn't.

 

I am now thinking that the lift just exposed an existing problem?

 

I would think so. I would just about guarantee that the camber was off before you installed the axle. The lift would not effect that.

 

Willy

[Eagle]

Lift does not (CANnot) affect camber. But lift does change the toe-in, which can make it look like the camber has changed.

[BLHTAZ]

I haven't had time this weekend to get back to this, but here is a detailed explanation. I understand that simply lifting a vehicle does not effect camber and I also understand the disc on a stick theory...BUT, I know the disc on a stick thing to be wrong...and here is why. (please excuse my crude drawing)

 

 

Here is a shot of my YJ (D30) that we did an SOA on. The red line shows the ball joint orientation.

 

 

We mistakenly rotated the pinion up 2 degrees while doing this job and in doing so it changed the camber pushing the top of the tire outward, which in turn destroyed the two front tires in 3 months time. I put some 2 degree shims in it to bring it back down and the tires are wearing perfectly now almost 4 years later.

 

 

 

I AM NOT saying that using the pinion/caster is the way to fix a camber issue, but if a person (like me) mistakenly changes the caster/pinion angle, then it will definitely be the cause of the camber issue. :cheers: