Hammer trails in trouble!

[Jeepgal]

This is really important! Encouraging everyone to do this. If it can't save the Hammers, at least politicians will get the idea that thousands of people use trails in the USA! If you are not registered with Pirate 4x4 yet, now would be a good time. The day of the rally you might not be able to register to make a post.

 

The email I got today, with the specifics on the Pirate Virtual Rally:

 

Virtual on-line Rally to be Held by 4x4 Enthusiasts

Off Highway Vehicle enthusiasts organize to hold first ever online rally over trail closures

 

In a landmark event, thousands of Off Highway Vehicle (OHV) users across the world will participate in a online, Virtual Rally to voice their concerns over a popular OHV area in Southern California. On Wednesday March 12th, 2008 Pirate4x4.com, a leading website for the OHV community, will hold this rally from 2 to 6 PM PST.

 

The Hammers trail system in Johnson Valley, California is being considered for requisition to expand the United States Marine Corps training facilities, which would effectively eliminate public access to Johnson Valley's unrivaled OHV Mecca.

 

Virtual Rally participants will be asked to post their experiences, photos and history recreating with their families in the Johnson Valley Area, and the concerns they have with losing this unique recreational resource. These comments will be posted and tracked in bulletin-board format, with a goal of creating a lasting record of how important this unassuming stretch of desert is to a vast number of people from many places -- some who visit Johnson Valley multiple times a year, and others who just dream of the opportunity of visiting the Hammers in the future. Interested parties are encouraged to attend the rally and read the thread, as this is a public rally, you do not need to be a member of Pirate4x4.com to read what is posted.

 

Families and clubs have recreated in this area for many years with OHV's, and competitive rock crawling, rock racing, motorcycling, and ATV events have been held there for more than a decade, with significant rewards for the area economy. In February, the famed "King of the Hammers" annual rock race crowned its king.

 

The Bureau of Land Management currently manages the Johnson Valley's varied landscape of steep red rocky mountains, rolling hills, open valleys, dry lake beds, dunes, and sandy washes. The main attraction for most visitors is family OHV recreation: trail-rides, competitive racing events, and general OHV free play. Johnson Valley sees hundreds of thousands of recreation days with users motorcycling, ATVing, 4x4ing, rallycrossing, camping, hiking, rock-hounding, and wildlife-watching.

 

"It is ironic that the BLM has OHV users recreate responsibly by staying on marked trails and not having campfires at certain times of the year, but now they sell the same area to the Marines who will tear all over the area and conduct live fire drills", said Todd Ockert, The United Four Wheel Drive Association Director of Environmental Affairs.

 

The link for the rally on Wednesday, March 12th will be http://www.pirate4x4.com/jv

More Land Use information is available at http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=85

 

# # #

 

If you would like more information on this topic, or to schedule an interview with Kurt Schneider the Pirate4x4 Land Use Officer, Please e-mail Kurt at kurtuleas@pirate4x4.com

[HOrnbrod]

Hey, if the USMC at 29 Palms needs this land to provide more beneficial training, and the additional combat experience gained from this training enables just one Marine to survive his tour in the sandpile, then this is a no brainer. The off-road community can suck it up and find another place to play. The Marines ain't playin'.

[mfpdm]

Hey, if the USMC at 29 Palms needs this land to provide more beneficial training, and the additional combat experience gained from this training enables just one Marine to survive his tour in the sandpile, then this is a no brainer. The off-road community can suck it up and find another place to play. The Marines ain't playin'.

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking along those lines. Yea I hate to see a good spot taken from the offroad community, but this is for a good reason. Our boys need all the traininng and skills they can get. And if this area can help save one life, it's worth it.

 

:USAflag:

[SuperWade2]

Hey, if the USMC at 29 Palms needs this land to provide more beneficial training, and the additional combat experience gained from this training enables just one Marine to survive his tour in the sandpile, then this is a no brainer. The off-road community can suck it up and find another place to play. The Marines ain't playin'.

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking along those lines. Yea I hate to see a good spot taken from the offroad community, but this is for a good reason. Our boys need all the traininng and skills they can get. And if this area can help save one life, it's worth it.

 

:USAflag:

 

I agree... this isn't the same thing, at least to me, as the El Dorado Forest proposed closures up in NorCal that appear to be more or less because the Forestry service is tired of dealing with the trails (I'm over simplifying of course)...

 

I think in this care we should be able to find a happy medium... More space for the Boys @ 29 Palms to train and some trails left open for the ORV community to still enjoy.

 

I've never had the pleasure of running Hammers, but a bunch of the guys in my 4x4Club (which I'm still the new guy) go every year and are VERY upset that this location might change/be closed.

 

SW2

[Jeepgal]

The government has many land choices (3) for this. First off you need to know that the OHV community respects and supports the Marines 100%. We have ALWAYS backed our military.

 

We are also very aware that no matter what we say as a community, the USMC will take our land away from us.

 

You need to understand this from OUR point of view! Our places to wheel are under attack NON-STOP we are losing our access to public lands left and right, and this is another huge chunk of land being ripped away from us. Do you expect us NOT to do anything about it? Should we just bend over and take it? We know it's a losing battle, but we will fight to the last man for PUBLIC LAND that is ours. What would you do if you were in our position?

 

Don't you fight for Freedom? Well, public lands are about to be no longer public, they will belong to the Government. That does not sound like the Unitied States to me, that sounds like Communism!

[a1awind]

i will not complain about our armed forces needing land. ok, we can suck it up for the greater good in this respect.

 

now, if they wanted to build a shopping mall or a housing plan (this is what we have to deal with in Pa), screw them!!!

 

I believe in "tread lightly" but we are running out of places to do so. i will agree with jeepgal on that. my point, If you want to take my trail to train the marines ...I'm cool with that. if you want to take my trail because you want to build a dozen $500,000 houses on the land.....i will fight you tooth and nail!!!

 

There was a popular off roading spot that i grew up near it was refered to as "the ponds" and they closed it off to build part of the disaster they call interstate 43. not only is it the most expensive hwy project outside of the "big dig" in boston. its also unneeded. they built the section from I-70 to Rt-51 first when they should have built from Rt 51 to downtown Pittsburgh first. Now they are out of money and can't build the rest of it. if you drive on the hwy at rush hour and travel the length beween 51 and 70 (about 20 miles) you may pass 1 other car in either direction!!!! building the pittsburgh end first would have aleveated traffic on the already clogged 51, and spared "the ponds". just an example i am sure i lost a few of ya.

[HOrnbrod]

The government has many land choices (3) for this. First off you need to know that the OHV community respects and supports the Marines 100%. We have ALWAYS backed our military.

 

We are also very aware that no matter what we say as a community, the USMC will take our land away from us.

 

You need to understand this from OUR point of view! Our places to wheel are under attack NON-STOP we are losing our access to public lands left and right, and this is another huge chunk of land being ripped away from us. Do you expect us NOT to do anything about it? Should we just bend over and take it? We know it's a losing battle, but we will fight to the last man for PUBLIC LAND that is ours. What would you do if you were in our position?

 

Don't you fight for Freedom? Well, public lands are about to be no longer public, they will belong to the Government. That does not sound like the Unitied States to me, that sounds like Communism!

 

Public Land like Johnson Valley (Dept. of the Interior land) is designated public only if the federal government allows it to be, and it's not needed for a higher purpose. In this case, the Marines need the land to expand the boundaries of the Twenty Nine Palms Marine Air-Ground Combat Center and augment their training area, and give the Marines a better shot at survival. Sure, I don't like to see the steadily dwindling public wheelin' areas any more than you do, but in the case you and your cohorts are dead wrong. Your statement "PUBLIC LAND that is ours" is ludicrous. As is your infantile reference to Communism. Suggest you go somewhere like Baghdad or Kabul and check out the "public land" there available for wheelin'. :nuts:

[sta3/7]

I am a 3rd generation Marine (all 3 generations have seen combat). So I feel that since I have fought for the right of freedom of speach I am going to use it.

It appears that you that have spoken regarding the military proposed acquisition of the Johnson Valley area with out knowing anything about the area (just like I admit to knowing nothing about Alabama).

I have lived and trained in 29 Palms and can tell you that there is already many miles of unused desert that is not being used in the 29 Palm training area.

 

As I have been in the sandbox over there I can tell you that the fight that we are fighting is urban warfare (house to house). If you are referring to Afghanistan, the Marine training ground outside of Bridgeport, CA. provides the current mountain warfare training. This area butts up to Yosemite National Park. Would you be all for taking the national park land away for to expand the base up there?

 

Instead of just rolling over every time the government wants to make changes we need to get involved and help find a mutual solution.

 

As I believe in doing what ever it takes to save any military life, I do not feel that this additional land will contribute to this.

 

 

All the responses I see on this thread are from the East except one in the bay area of California. If this was affecting the areas that you use and you had first hand knowledge of whether or not it was a valid reason to shut you out, you would fight just like we are.

 

As I have stated I had made the commitment to serve this great country of ours and have given you the right to speak your mind with this commitment whether I agree with your view or not, but that does not mean I have to like it and that I have to keep quite.

 

Remember that the off road community is a small one and that we all need to band together to help each other in our individual battles. And remember what your mother always told you “if you do not have anything good to say, then keep your tree hugging mouth shut”.

 

I commend you on your support of our military as that is hard to come by lately but please research before speaking on this issue.

 

Support our troops as they give you the right to disagree. :USAflag:

[a1awind]

thank you for you and your family's service

[SuperWade2]

thank you for you and your family's service

 

X2...and, sta3/7, your right, you have EVERY right to speak your mind, as do we all all thanks to great Americans, like yourself ,who have protected that freedom for hundreds of years.

 

...and while now in the Bay Area, I spent a year (a painful one), living in the Inland Empire and working down the Highway from 29Palms, and have a good number of ex-coworkers and friends from that are ex-Mil and trained there... so I am at least somewhat familiar with the area and not completely talking out of my bum...

[chicofuentes0224]

It's all a conspiracy maaan. They just wanna take the land so alien spaceships have more room to land in Cali and take over the movie bussiness maaan. Hey anybody have any veggie burritos maaan :chillin:

 

PS. Useless discussion. US military will do what it wants. You don't like it, leave the country. Or option two start a revolution and run for president.

Vote for Chico 2016 :D

[sta3/7]

thank you for you and your family's service

 

X2...and, sta3/7, your right, you have EVERY right to speak your mind, as do we all all thanks to great Americans, like yourself ,who have protected that freedom for hundreds of years.

 

...and while now in the Bay Area, I spent a year (a painful one), living in the Inland Empire and working down the Highway from 29Palms, and have a good number of ex-coworkers and friends from that are ex-Mil and trained there... so I am at least somewhat familiar with the area and not completely talking out of my bum...

 

I am glad you kow about this area, so you can agree that the land mass that 29 palms has is great and that aquiring this additional space seems a little out there.

 

i have also been informed that the plan is to make a couple of changes one of them being that Miramar will move to 29 palms and they would need this additional space as a buffer for aircraft that would now be flying into 29 palms.

 

making this area a no fly zone would not be a problem, but to close it off completely rubs me. let's not forget we already have many training areas right around the corner like China Lake.

 

 

please continue to support our troops and be vocal about it as the loadest voices we always hear are always negitive unfortunatly.

 

a bad day of wheeling always beats a great day a work.....

[Carl'sMJ]

Sta3/7... are you still with 3/7? Heard they were in the rotation for this year.

 

Semper Fi, Devil Dog!

 

As for the communism comment... Jeepgal might want to think before sounding off next time. Last time I checked the USMC had killed enough communist, jihadist, and whatever else you can think of to prove whose side they are on! OORah! :USAflag:

[tkgibbs27]

damn politics. i hate it. :hateputers: we need to restore order and change the political system back to the republic it used to be. the american republicanism, not this socialism bs that is going on, or this democracy. our founding fathers warned us about the evils of a democracy. pssh :headpop: what a headache it all gives me. but it's like the evil attraction to money, it's hard to break.

[tkgibbs27]

It's all a conspiracy maaan. They just wanna take the land so alien spaceships have more room to land in Cali and take over the movie bussiness maaan. Hey anybody have any veggie burritos maaan :chillin:

 

:yes: best one i have heard yet.

[sta3/7]

Sta3/7... are you still with 3/7? Heard they were in the rotation for this year

 

Semper Fi, Devil Dog!

 

As for the communism comment... Jeepgal might want to think before sounding off next time. Last time I checked the USMC had killed enough communist, jihadist, and whatever else you can think of to prove whose side they are on! OORah! :USAflag:

 

Sounds like you may have a little olive drab in you also.

 

Not active any more, now it is time to take care of the family.

 

I believe (at least I want to believe) that the communist comment was not refering to our millitary but in the way that the government can just do what they want. I like to think that we are the true government and that our representatives are our voices but if we do not speak up and direct them in the right direction they will stray and forget how and why they are where they are.

 

Power is a very dangerous thing and often abused, let's just take the most recent political figure (NY Govenor)that thought he was above what he himself was a front runner for. (this was done by wire taps, see big brother is listening).

 

Semper FI :USAflag:

[mfpdm]

I am a 3rd generation Marine (all 3 generations have seen combat). So I feel that since I have fought for the right of freedom of speach I am going to use it.

It appears that you that have spoken regarding the military proposed acquisition of the Johnson Valley area with out knowing anything about the area (just like I admit to knowing nothing about Alabama).

I have lived and trained in 29 Palms and can tell you that there is already many miles of unused desert that is not being used in the 29 Palm training area.

As I have been in the sandbox over there I can tell you that the fight that we are fighting is urban warfare (house to house). If you are referring to Afghanistan, the Marine training ground outside of Bridgeport, CA. provides the current mountain warfare training. This area butts up to Yosemite National Park. Would you be all for taking the national park land away for to expand the base up there?

Instead of just rolling over every time the government wants to make changes we need to get involved and help find a mutual solution.

As I believe in doing what ever it takes to save any military life, I do not feel that this additional land will contribute to this.

All the responses I see on this thread are from the East except one in the bay area of California. If this was affecting the areas that you use and you had first hand knowledge of whether or not it was a valid reason to shut you out, you would fight just like we are.

As I have stated I had made the commitment to serve this great country of ours and have given you the right to speak your mind with this commitment whether I agree with your view or not, but that does not mean I have to like it and that I have to keep quite.

Remember that the off road community is a small one and that we all need to band together to help each other in our individual battles. And remember what your mother always told you “if you do not have anything good to say, then keep your tree hugging mouth shut”.

I commend you on your support of our military as that is hard to come by lately but please research before speaking on this issue.

Support our troops as they give you the right to disagree. :USAflag:

 

Thank you for your service and welcome to the Club.

 

I'm an East Coast guy so yes this offroad area does not touch me the way that it does those that can enjoy it. I'm proud of my profession but don't normally need to reference it to make a point. However, I have been in Uncle Sam's employment, Defending the Rights laid out for this Great Nation, for the past 23 plus years and counting. The last 5 years I've been dealing with research and development of new technologies and dealing directly with the training centers across all services. So I think I know just a little bit on the topic.

 

I'm not a ground pounder; I belong to the yacht club. All the Armed Services have been taking major cuts and closures of facilities since the end of the cold war. Yes we still have a lot of real estate but you have to take in the big picture with some of these areas. They need to have sufficient buffer zones and safety areas to facilitate the different types of training. This keeps not only the civilian population safe but also allows the services to conduct uninhibited training without the influence of public surroundings. It's kind of easy for the Navy; we just go out to sea.

 

Being an Army brat, my father, 30 year veteran of 3 wars not counting our current war, would take me out to Fort Bragg to watch the exercises out there. They had miles of empty space, but it only takes one misdirected howitzer round landing in your front yard to realize why they have so much space.

 

This fight as stated before would be different if it was land owned by a public company or individual and the government came in and took it. They own the land and now have a need for it. It's just like if you rented a house and the owner came in and said, you have to move I need my house back. Bottom line is, you would move.

 

I think everyone should stand up for what they believe in. And yes the government should be made aware that areas for legal offroading are becoming extinct. However I don't think there will be a mutual solution in this particular issue. The guys wearing the stars obvious believe they need this space for the troops and they don't always tell us lower ranking people why.

 

 

:cheers:

[sta3/7]

I am a 3rd generation Marine (all 3 generations have seen combat). So I feel that since I have fought for the right of freedom of speach I am going to use it.

It appears that you that have spoken regarding the military proposed acquisition of the Johnson Valley area with out knowing anything about the area (just like I admit to knowing nothing about Alabama).

I have lived and trained in 29 Palms and can tell you that there is already many miles of unused desert that is not being used in the 29 Palm training area.

As I have been in the sandbox over there I can tell you that the fight that we are fighting is urban warfare (house to house). If you are referring to Afghanistan, the Marine training ground outside of Bridgeport, CA. provides the current mountain warfare training. This area butts up to Yosemite National Park. Would you be all for taking the national park land away for to expand the base up there?

Instead of just rolling over every time the government wants to make changes we need to get involved and help find a mutual solution.

As I believe in doing what ever it takes to save any military life, I do not feel that this additional land will contribute to this.

All the responses I see on this thread are from the East except one in the bay area of California. If this was affecting the areas that you use and you had first hand knowledge of whether or not it was a valid reason to shut you out, you would fight just like we are.

As I have stated I had made the commitment to serve this great country of ours and have given you the right to speak your mind with this commitment whether I agree with your view or not, but that does not mean I have to like it and that I have to keep quite.

Remember that the off road community is a small one and that we all need to band together to help each other in our individual battles. And remember what your mother always told you “if you do not have anything good to say, then keep your tree hugging mouth shut”.

I commend you on your support of our military as that is hard to come by lately but please research before speaking on this issue.

Support our troops as they give you the right to disagree. :USAflag:

 

Thank you for your service and welcome to the Club.

 

I'm an East Coast guy so yes this offroad area does not touch me the way that it does those that can enjoy it. I'm proud of my profession but don't normally need to reference it to make a point. However, I have been in Uncle Sam's employment, Defending the Rights laid out for this Great Nation, for the past 23 plus years and counting. The last 5 years I've been dealing with research and development of new technologies and dealing directly with the training centers across all services. So I think I know just a little bit on the topic.

 

I'm not a ground pounder; I belong to the yacht club. All the Armed Services have been taking major cuts and closures of facilities since the end of the cold war. Yes we still have a lot of real estate but you have to take in the big picture with some of these areas. They need to have sufficient buffer zones and safety areas to facilitate the different types of training. This keeps not only the civilian population safe but also allows the services to conduct uninhibited training without the influence of public surroundings. It's kind of easy for the Navy; we just go out to sea.

 

Being an Army brat, my father, 30 year veteran of 3 wars not counting our current war, would take me out to Fort Bragg to watch the exercises out there. They had miles of empty space, but it only takes one misdirected howitzer round landing in your front yard to realize why they have so much space.

 

This fight as stated before would be different if it was land owned by a public company or individual and the government came in and took it. They own the land and now have a need for it. It's just like if you rented a house and the owner came in and said, you have to move I need my house back. Bottom line is, you would move.

 

I think everyone should stand up for what they believe in. And yes the government should be made aware that areas for legal offroading are becoming extinct. However I don't think there will be a mutual solution in this particular issue. The guys wearing the stars obvious believe they need this space for the troops and they don't always tell us lower ranking people why.

 

 

:cheers:

 

Thank you for your continued service to this country. :USAflag:

 

I do agree that we most likely do not have an option that if they want this land they will get it. The only good news is that the USMC has not filed a official letter of intent to encompass this area yet.

At this point the only thing we are trying to do is be heard in hopes that other solutions may me looked at.

 

There is a virtual rally on Pirate 4X4 today from 2pm - 6pm PST, this will not be a "let's bash the services" event as this will be closly monitored and any negitive input about our military will be deleted.

what we are hoping for is to raise attention to this area by people who have been to the Hammers or intend to visit and their positive experiences.

 

If you have a different opinion then don't participate, but if you do please keep any comments professional.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Jeepgal]

Posted, #43! :D

[HOrnbrod]

Thank you for your service and welcome to the Club.

 

I'm an East Coast guy so yes this offroad area does not touch me the way that it does those that can enjoy it. I'm proud of my profession but don't normally need to reference it to make a point. However, I have been in Uncle Sam's employment, Defending the Rights laid out for this Great Nation, for the past 23 plus years and counting. The last 5 years I've been dealing with research and development of new technologies and dealing directly with the training centers across all services. So I think I know just a little bit on the topic.

 

I'm not a ground pounder; I belong to the yacht club. All the Armed Services have been taking major cuts and closures of facilities since the end of the cold war. Yes we still have a lot of real estate but you have to take in the big picture with some of these areas. They need to have sufficient buffer zones and safety areas to facilitate the different types of training. This keeps not only the civilian population safe but also allows the services to conduct uninhibited training without the influence of public surroundings. It's kind of easy for the Navy; we just go out to sea.

 

Being an Army brat, my father, 30 year veteran of 3 wars not counting our current war, would take me out to Fort Bragg to watch the exercises out there. They had miles of empty space, but it only takes one misdirected howitzer round landing in your front yard to realize why they have so much space.

 

This fight as stated before would be different if it was land owned by a public company or individual and the government came in and took it. They own the land and now have a need for it. It's just like if you rented a house and the owner came in and said, you have to move I need my house back. Bottom line is, you would move.

 

I think everyone should stand up for what they believe in. And yes the government should be made aware that areas for legal offroading are becoming extinct. However I don't think there will be a mutual solution in this particular issue. The guys wearing the stars obvious believe they need this space for the troops and they don't always tell us lower ranking people why. :cheers:

 

Good thread and I am better informed now regarding the subject AO. Since most contributors to this thread feel it necessary to post their military credentials, I too was a 20 year member of the Yatch Club, a commo guy, and had postings in Nam and early Desert Shield setting up comms for the Jarheads and Dogs (and loved them all ). I continue to do this work as a government civilian for all military branches and the purples. 'Nuff said. I think most of the more vocal posters of the proposed land takeover are here only because it affects you all personally, which is only human. If this was occuring in AL or parts farther East, I suspect not a peep would be heard from the CA crowd. Again, all natural, and perhaps if I lived out there (NOT! :D ) I would be in the forefront of your effort. Wish you guys and gals luck, but it's tough going against a cause when/if the 4-stars and politicians have their minds made up, as I'm sure you already know. Found out all about fighting lost causes in the Philippines when the morons closed the bases there. Good luck all. :USAflag:

[dakal]

here in oregon the blm is sucking up as much land as they can. the burrocrats need to be fought. they don't care of the off roaders problems. fight them when you can. save what you can, before its too :mad: late!!!!!!!!!!!!!