Lifter Tick

[JZLAJeep]

We are thinking of doing our nearly annual sequestration in the bro-in-laws shop over Christmas break and taking on our latest "biggest project we've ever done." We think we have lifter issues.

 

At low RPM there is an audible tick. The tick goes away when accelerating and elevated RPMs. The tick is worse when the engine is cold, but is still noticeable when the engine is warm and idling. Are we correctly diagnosing a lifter tick?

 

Plan to at least take off the valve cover and check the rocker arms and will keep digging if we don't like what we see. Are we on the right track?

 

Parts list:

• Valve cover gasket (Fel-Pro VS50522T)
• Head Gasket (Fel-Pro 530SD)
• Manifold Gasket (Fel-Pro MS93680)
• Valve Lifters (Qty 12) (Enginetech L2011) recommend better?

 

Anything you'd add to this list without blowing the budget?

[89 MJ]

Sounds like a lifter to me, but I’d make sure all of the rocker arms are tight first. I’ve had a hole in a rocker arm before where the pushrod goes and that was my tick. 
 

While you’re in there, you might want to lap the valves and change the valve stem seals. Maybe throw a timing set at it too. 
 

Make sure the lifters you get are good quality. It seems that most flat tapper lifters anymore are cheaply made garbage that like to wipe out cam lobes. 

[AZJeff]

I would advocate for using a Reflex manifold gasket in lieu of the regular Fel-pro.  The Remflex is more tolerant of sealing the juncture of the manifold and head.

[gogmorgo]

Something something exhaust leak. 
Double check the manifold for cracks and leaks around the gasket. 
But you’re probably correct about a lifter.

[JZLAJeep]

9 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

Something something exhaust leak. 
Double check the manifold for cracks and leaks around the gasket. 
But you’re probably correct about a lifter.

I think the odds that there is a cracked manifold or leaky gasket are moderate to high. If we tear down to the lifters (which is likely), we are planning to thoroughly examine the manifold before it's reinstalled.

 

A question for you, can cracked manifolds be welded? I know it would be better to replace, but every repair is weighed against the question, "is the repair appropriate for the condition of the vehicle," which means "good enough" is often where we end up. But, if we have the engine torn down that far, it would be nice to put it back right.

[JZLAJeep]

39 minutes ago, AZJeff said:

I would advocate for using a Reflex manifold gasket in lieu of the regular Fel-pro.  The Remflex is more tolerant of sealing the juncture of the manifold and head.

Thanks for the recommendation. Certainly something we want to get right the first time.

[JZLAJeep]

18 hours ago, 89 MJ said:

Make sure the lifters you get are good quality. It seems that most flat tapper lifters anymore are cheaply made garbage that like to wipe out cam lobes. 

Have recommendations? The Enginetech L2011 lifters seem to be the ones commonly used. 

[89 MJ]

12 minutes ago, JZLAJeep said:

A question for you, can cracked manifolds be welded? I know it would be better to replace, but every repair is weighed against the question, "is the repair appropriate for the condition of the vehicle," which means "good enough" is often where we end up. But, if we have the engine torn down that far, it would be nice to put it back right.

Yes they can because they have a header and not a cast manifold. 
 

10 minutes ago, JZLAJeep said:

Have recommendations? The Enginetech L2011 lifters seem to be the ones commonly used. 

Maybe talk to Newcomer racing about the lifters they use. Otherwise, anything made in the US will probably be your best bet. 

[gogmorgo]

3 hours ago, JZLAJeep said:

 

A question for you, can cracked manifolds be welded?

No reason you can’t, but it’s not always going to work out. Thin steel like that gets weird stresses in it as it heat cycles, not to mention the engine moving between the mounts, and often where it cracks its been flexed back and forth a bunch to the point the steel has lost a lot of strength, hence the crack. Sometimes you get lucky but more often than not it just ends up cracking right next to the weld again.
You can mess around with heat treating, normalizing or whatever the process is called, but it requires a specialized oven and fixtures, and unless you get everything absolutely correct you’ll just warp the whole thing so it never seals again and stresses the crap out of it when you bolt it on anyway. So basically not really worth doing for a not-great oem manifold. 

 

But manifolds aren’t cheap, especially good ones, and the cheap ones aren’t very good. So if you don’t want to replace the thing it’s at least worth trying to weld up some minor cracks. For the best chance of success, what we did back when I was very breifly involved with race cars with fully custom headers, was always weld with it bolted to the engine to avoid warping, and then take a torch and get the whole area around the welds cherry red before and again after welding. I can’t imagine it’s guaranteed every time successful, but it at least made us feel like we were doing something. 

It’s a bit pedantic but I don’t think there’s a hard and fast definition distinguishing between a “manifold” and a “header”. They’re both exhaust collectors, I suppose there’s something to be said for being a log style manifold vs a y-pipe collector “header” but the oem manifold is somewhere in between. 

[89 MJ]

14 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

It’s a bit pedantic but I don’t think there’s a hard and fast definition distinguishing between a “manifold” and a “header”. They’re both exhaust collectors, I suppose there’s something to be said for being a log style manifold vs a y-pipe collector “header” but the oem manifold is somewhere in between. 

I was told that if its bent tubing, its a header and if its cast iron, its an exhaust manifold. Headers also typically have closer to equal length runners. That's why I call it a header, but I'd guess the parts books call it an exhaust manifold. At the end of the day, I suppose it doesn't really matter what we call it though, they have the same purpose. 

[JZLAJeep]

48 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

But manifolds aren’t cheap, especially good ones, and the cheap ones aren’t very good. So if you don’t want to replace the thing it’s at least worth trying to weld up some minor cracks. For the best chance of success, what we did back when I was very breifly involved with race cars with fully custom headers, was always weld with it bolted to the engine to avoid warping, and then take a torch and get the whole area around the welds cherry red before and again after welding. I can’t imagine it’s guaranteed every time successful, but it at least made us feel like we were doing something. 

Thanks for the great information! In the quote above, I guess you hope the task is done before the MJ catches fire? 

[JZLAJeep]

Parts ordered and are trickling in. Space in bro-in-law's shop confirmed. The Comanche is on Santa's nice list.

[gogmorgo]

On 12/20/2024 at 5:37 PM, JZLAJeep said:

Thanks for the great information! In the quote above, I guess you hope the task is done before the MJ catches fire? 

Don’t point the torch at anything that’ll burn? I guess I forgot to add that we usually did it with the engine outside the car. You could maybe do the same with an induction heater to lower the risk. Nothing should really be close enough to the exhaust to catch fire just from radiant heat, the concern really would just be avoiding hitting anything plastic or rubber with the torch, or a painted surface.

The most common locations for cracks is in the notches of the Ys.

[JZLAJeep]

49 minutes ago, gogmorgo said:

I guess I forgot to add that we usually did it with the engine outside the car.

That makes sense. We aren't taking the engine out. We'll see what we can do for heat. Maybe we'll get a good look at the exhaust manifold and see that it's in perfect condition... Wishful thinking anyway...