We're at the alignment shop

[Eagle]

18 hours ago, coolwind57 said:

 

 

For $155, I'm getting more than checking the toe...They're adjusting total toe from its current 61-degrees to within spec, while they're also addressing the poor caster. 

 

Two days ago I didn't even know what freakin' camber and caster was, let alone how to fix my drifting steering.   I also wanted the shop to look at my driver's coil spring, as it is still slightly rubbing my upper track bar mount. 

 

I've come a long way in learning about my front end these past couple of days, but I'm cool with dropping $155 still for having live alignment professionals looking over my new purchase, especially since this appears to be a budget lift from the PO.  They're also inspecting other components for signs that I as a newby, don't know to look for.  Yea, I suppose I'm also buying some piece of mind with that money.  But they've also been really cool in answering a barrage of questions and they're showing me stuff too, which is great.  

 

 

Well, if it's worth it to you, that's what counts. While they're answering questions, though, ask them what they mean by "total toe from its current 61-degrees to within spec," Toe-in for an '87 MJ isn't even measured in degrees, although the newer machines may have conversion tables. The toe-in was specified in degrees for the 2000 XJ, though. But ... toe-in is supposed to be zero to 1/16th or 1/8th of an inch. I'd have to look up what that equates to in degrees, but it certainly isn't 61 degrees, or anywhere near 61 degrees. I don't think there's enough adjustment range on the MJ tie rod to achieve anything close to 61 degrees of toe-in.

[coolwind57]

51 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 

Well, if it's worth it to you, that's what counts. While they're answering questions, though, ask them what they mean by "total toe from its current 61-degrees to within spec," Toe-in for an '87 MJ isn't even measured in degrees, although the newer machines may have conversion tables. The toe-in was specified in degrees for the 2000 XJ, though. But ... toe-in is supposed to be zero to 1/16th or 1/8th of an inch. I'd have to look up what that equates to in degrees, but it certainly isn't 61 degrees, or anywhere near 61 degrees. I don't think there's enough adjustment range on the MJ tie rod to achieve anything close to 61 degrees of toe-in.

Those are my words based upon this:

[coolwind57]

And this is a screen shot of "spec".

[coolwind57]

15 hours ago, Jeep Driver said:

Guess what I'm getting at is this-

 

 

Uppers, axle bushings, how worn are they?

 

Why would you adjust anything to old and worn?

 

My 1989 Comanche has 98K original miles.  I replaced my LCAs with ones designed for the WJ primarily to eliminate my 31s from rubbing the LCAs.    

 

I do not know if my uppers are worn out.  I would suspect not.  The lowers looked pretty good when I replaced them, so if I had to guess I'd say the uppers look good as well.  Again, I just did the LCAs so that my tires would no longer rub.  Worked like a charm too, by the way.  My steering pulls to the right every so slightly.  It is noticeable, but very minor.  I understand that proper caster will likely correct this.

 

I hired the alignment shop to inspect my steering components, correct whatever needed bringing back to spec and to assess my (apparent) budget lift. .  I had no idea myself at the time what was actually going on down there during the dynamics of this truck going down the road.  Cool thing I'm getting for my money is this:  A good baseline as HOrnbrod and I have been discussing.   

 

I discussed my truck with the alignment shop for several minutes.  They did not mention to me that I had any worn-out components.  I'm sure they would had LOVED to sell me some replacement components/bushings.   So, I'll ask them next week when i see them if they had specifically inspected my uppers and axle bushings.  Certainly not a bad idea.  

 

To answer your question:  I have no intention of adjusting anything too old and worn.    

 

 

 

 

[HOrnbrod]

Toe Inches to Degrees Calculator

 

Also, even a small 2-1/2' lift will pull your front axle off-center a bit. To check, with wheels pointed directly straight and on a level surface, measure the distances from the inner wheel rim to the outer frame rail at the same point on both sides. If over 1/2" or so (mine was 3/4") difference between the measurements, an adjustable track bar should be installed to center the axle.

[johnj92131]

One picture is worth 1000 words here

 

That 61 degrees is actually .61 degrees.  Or something close to 2/3 of 1 degree. 

Very easy to miss that little decimal point.  With out that decimal point, 61 degrees is closed to a right angle.

Especially if you are not familiar with the terms.

[HOrnbrod]

You might get a little bump steer with a 61* toe-in.

 

[Jeep Driver]

6 hours ago, coolwind57 said:

 

My 1989 Comanche has 98K original miles.  I replaced my LCAs with ones designed for the WJ primarily to eliminate my 31s from rubbing the LCAs.    

 

I do not know if my uppers are worn out.  I would suspect not.  The lowers looked pretty good when I replaced them, so if I had to guess I'd say the uppers look good as well.  Again, I just did the LCAs so that my tires would no longer rub.  Worked like a charm too, by the way.  My steering pulls to the right every so slightly.  It is noticeable, but very minor.  I understand that proper caster will likely correct this.

 

I hired the alignment shop to inspect my steering components, correct whatever needed bringing back to spec and to assess my (apparent) budget lift. .  I had no idea myself at the time what was actually going on down there during the dynamics of this truck going down the road.  Cool thing I'm getting for my money is this:  A good baseline as HOrnbrod and I have been discussing.   

 

I discussed my truck with the alignment shop for several minutes.  They did not mention to me that I had any worn-out components.  I'm sure they would had LOVED to sell me some replacement components/bushings.   So, I'll ask them next week when i see them if they had specifically inspected my uppers and axle bushings.  Certainly not a bad idea.  

 

To answer your question:  I have no intention of adjusting anything too old and worn.    

 

 

 

 

OK.............

 

 

If the uppers are original? they are worn, after 28 years, toast. Time does as much, if not more damage, than miles. 

 

 

No, not every shop 'upsales'. They sized you up the moment you walked in the door, they know precisely what you will and will not pay for. For the amount of work and effort.........they KNOW they will not upsale you a $800 front end job. If they thought they could, they would, so, they may not even mention it, regarding uppers. 

As Don stated regarding TB, either they did not know  to look or they knew and did not mention. 

 

I would not spend $150 to align a front end without making certain every worn part is replaced and the axle is centered. 

 

I've had my front axle out numerous times and I've been down your road........I did the WJ lowers, they are now on my wife's XJ, she gets the hand-me-down parts. 

Maybe I'm just fortunate, my front axle is straight, I get it damn near spot on before it goes to alignment. My guy charges $60. He'll see it again in a month or so........knuckle/brake swap and complete steering swap. 

 

 

[coolwind57]

 

8 hours ago, HOrnbrod said:

Convert Toe Inches to Degrees Calculator

 

https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeInchesToDegrees.htm

 

Also, even a small 2-1/2' lift will pull your front axle off-center a bit. To check, with wheels pointed directly straight and on a level surface, measure the distances from the inner wheel rim to the outer frame rail at the same point on both sides. If over 1/2" or so (mine was 3/4") difference between the measurements, an adjustable track bar should be installed to center the axle.

 

Will do, Sir.  Thank you.  It might end up being the only thing that'll further the distance of my coil spring that's making slight contact with the track bar bracket too. 

 

6 hours ago, johnj92131 said:

One picture is worth 1000 words here

 

That 61 degrees is actually .61 degrees.  Or something close to 2/3 of 1 degree. 

Very easy to miss that little decimal point.  With out that decimal point, 61 degrees is closed to a right angle.

Especially if you are not familiar with the terms.

 

Good catch, thanks!  Yep, inaccurate, bad terminology, sorry.  Wow, even with that decimal point, their machine shows RED meaning out of spec enough to make adjustments.    I recall that I thought I could visually see that my tires are pointing outwards a few days ago when I was looking over it all.   

 

Thanks to all that have shared their knowledge, insights, and opinions in a patient and pleasant manner.  You guys are great and add strength and honor to the brotherhood of the Comanche (BOTC).  We all need tattoos!  Seriously, I've learned a ton and I have chosen a course of action that I feel good about.  I am enjoying my new addiction and like hanging out here.

[Eagle]

A picture is worth a thousand words -- or a decimal point. :) Yeah, there's a wee bit of difference between 61 degrees and point-61 degrees.

 

For what it's worth, the 2000 Cherokee FSM lists the alignment specs in degrees. Preferred is +.25 degrees, allowable range is 0 to .45 degrees, and the right-to-left difference is .05 degrees. So your .61 is indeed out of spec, and the left-to-right difference is also out of spec. That said, others have raised a good point -- with the lift, your axle is off center. They can set the toe-in, but ti's likely to still pull to one side.

 

I would respectfully suggest using a tape measure to set your toe-in for now, and hold off on the professional alignment until you get an adjustable track bar so you can have the axle centered.