mdwatson Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Egr is on a 86 2.5 auto. Tested it by opening diaphragm and had no change of idle or rpm. Pulled it and cleaned a bunch of carbon off it reinstalled and still no change. The diaphragm is really hard to move with your fingers. My question is will it hurt anything to delete it until I can afford to buy a new one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Egr is on a 86 2.5 auto. Tested it by opening diaphragm and had no change of idle or rpm. Pulled it and cleaned a bunch of carbon off it reinstalled and still no change. The diaphragm is really hard to move with your fingers. My question is will it hurt anything to delete it until I can afford to buy a new one? . Short answer is "no". . EGR adds a bit of exhaust to the intake air charge (hence the name Exhaust Gas Recirculation) in order to reduce the peak combustion temperature and thereby reduce emission of (various) oxides of nitrogen (NOX is a lung, mucous membrane, and eye irritant; in places subject to poor atmospheric circulation - like LA - it can be a contributor to smog; elsewhere, NOX is virtually unnoticeable); by doing so it robs power from your engine. Running without it you might barely notice the engine running better and very small increases in power and fuel economy (or you might not even notice). . I think it is (finally, for some years now) illegal in all states to tamper with emissions equipment on your engine. Some states do not do require periodic vehicle inspection and many do not do in-use emissions testing, so you may be able to get away with said tampering indefinitely, regardless of restrictions... not that I would ever advocate willingly flouting the law, mind you. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdwatson Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 Oh forgot to mention the area I live in doesn't do emission tests and the po apparently gutted the cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I have a brand new Borg Warner one for $60. It mainly keeps the motors from pinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimoshel Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Personally I would just trash can it and all associated parts. If you feel you really got to have one, I got one from a '65 2.5 you can have. Pay shipping and it's yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I have a brand new Borg Warner one for $60. It mainly keeps the motors from pinging. Not really. That's what the knock sensor was for. It was to reduce emissions. Do you just pull $#!& out of your hat and post it up? Consider the folks that are relying on intelligent, well informed answers. You're doing them a real dis-service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 The EGR's job is to take some oxygen away from the air/fuel mix so combustion temps are kept down and NOx formation is cut down. What happens to motors when you squirt nitrous oxide in? It burns faster and hotter. If you watch the tractor pull guys with gas motors, you can hear the pinging when they over NO2 the motors. Waaay too much and you see the backfires out the intake. http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/engine/ques080_1.html Knock sensor retards timing slightly to cut ping. What happens when timing is retarded too much? Power drops. Some internal engine noises mimic ping and cause the sensor to retard timing and really cut the power. I have 20 years as an ASE certified tech (since 1981). I left AMC when Chrysler took over and worked for Ford for awhile. I've been doing mostly parts since '02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdwatson Posted October 28, 2013 Author Share Posted October 28, 2013 Thanks guys. I removed it and put a plate on it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Thanks guys. I removed it and put a plate on it for now. That fixed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 On bad ones that stick open I remove and plug the hose then use a hammer to tap the top in until the valve can't open anymore. (or take it off and weld up the hole) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdwatson Posted November 6, 2013 Author Share Posted November 6, 2013 Cruiser54, there was no difference in how the motor ran with it on or with it removed with a solid plate put in it's place on the manifold. Guess I didn't really fix anything as the motor was running fine with it on but not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 So what did the plate accomplish if the source of the exhaust gasses into the intake are still present? Isn't that like having an open EGR all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted November 6, 2013 Share Posted November 6, 2013 I have a brand new Borg Warner one for $60. It mainly keeps the motors from pinging. Not really. That's what the knock sensor was for. It was to reduce emissions. Do you just pull $#!& out of your hat and post it up? Consider the folks that are relying on intelligent, well informed answers. You're doing them a real dis-service. The EGR's job is to take some oxygen away from the air/fuel mix so combustion temps are kept down and NOx formation is cut down. What happens to motors when you squirt nitrous oxide in? It burns faster and hotter. If you watch the tractor pull guys with gas motors, you can hear the pinging when they over NO2 the motors. Waaay too much and you see the backfires out the intake. http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/engine/ques080_1.html Knock sensor retards timing slightly to cut ping. What happens when timing is retarded too much? Power drops. Some internal engine noises mimic ping and cause the sensor to retard timing and really cut the power. I have 20 years as an ASE certified tech (since 1981). I left AMC when Chrysler took over and worked for Ford for awhile. I've been doing mostly parts since '02. . Carnuck is correct, but there are more ways to cut ping/knock/detonation than EGR and retarding ignition timing. Three more that come to mind are increasing the fuel/air ratio, using higher octane fuel, and reducing compression ratio. (You might think these sound impractical, but I assure you that all 3 have been used to eliminate ping in a running engine. In general use now is changing the fuel/air ratio via closed-loop control by utilizing O2 sensor feedback.) . Incidentally, I expect the reason for "the pinging engines burning nitrous at the tractor pull" is lean burn resulting from failure to add sufficient fuel to maintain correct fuel/air ratio when the N2O is added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Chrysler came up with retarding the cam timing on the HO to cut pinging by cutting the amount of air/fuel getting into the cylinder (AKA VE or Volumetric Efficiency) A trick not lost on the stroker guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Trick? It's not a trick, and pinging is controllable depending on engine compression and fuel octane rating. It's called a piggy-back chip installed between the ECU and the engine harness and has been around for many years. The Unichip is an example. Once installed, it allows you to plug in a programing tool, like a simple Windows laptop, and download various programs called MAPs maps to match your engine configuration. These MAPs maps are used to control inputs to the ECU, be it OBD1 or OBD2. These inputs include the IAT, CPS, TPS, and MAP signals and allow you to tune the A/F ratio for max power, max economy, and points in between. Piggy-back chips like the Unichip can be used on both stock and stroker engines, although stock engines w/o sufficient suck and blow mods are limited. As far as a blanket statement "In general use now is changing the fuel/air ratio via closed-loop control by utilizing O2 sensor feedback" ?? Would like an explanation how that is accomplished. Open/closed loop O2 sensor voltage output to the ECU is fixed in transition and is not variable except at 80% to WOT when the O2 sensor input defaults to open loop voltage, controlled by the ECU. There is no feedback. A Unichip or similar can control at what point this O2 sensor shift occurs based on the downloaded programmed MAP and the signals it delivers to the ECU. Edit: MAP corrected to map. Thanks for pointing that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdwatson Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Wow this got technical quick and way over my head. I just simply put the plate on to block the exhaust gas until I can scrounge the money for a new egr valve. The inside was caked in carbon so there was no flow even if the valve worked. I was just wondering if having no egr would be bad on the engine that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Chrysler came up with retarding the cam timing on the HO to cut pinging by cutting the amount of air/fuel getting into the cylinder (AKA VE or Volumetric Efficiency) A trick not lost on the stroker guys.Trick? It's not a trick, and pinging is controllable depending on engine compression and fuel octane rating. It's called a piggy-back chip installed between the ECU and the engine harness and has been around for many years. The Unichip is an example. Once installed, it allows you to plug in a programing tool, like a simple Windows laptop, and download various programs called MAPs to match your engine configuration. These MAPs are used to control inputs to the ECU, be it OBD1 or OBD2. These inputs include the IAT, CPS, TPS, and MAP signals and allow you to tune the A/F ratio for max power, max economy, and points in between. Piggy-back chips like the Unichip can be used on both stock and stroker engines, although stock engines w/o sufficient suck and blow mods are limited. Carnuck - retarding the camshaft timing is primarily done to boost power at higher engine speeds. The converse is true as well: advancing camshaft timing boosts power at low RPM. You are correct in mentioning that doing this affects volumetric efficiency (cylinder charging, expressed in percentage of cylinder + combustion chamber volume), but any effect on ping is incidental. Hornbrod - anything done to change the state of tune by an engine tuner comes from his "bag of tricks", so don't get hung up on Carnuck's nomenclature. You forgot to mention fuel/air ratio, which is variable, controllable, and when too lean is the most common cause of ping/detonation. When you go on to mention "it's called a piggy-back chip", just what is the "it" you are referring to? Carnuck did not mention anything but a "trick". Are you saying that a "piggy-back chip" is a "trick" that changes volumetric efficiency? Because, if so, it makes no sense in your follow-up comments about various programs called "MAPs"... and unless you are referring to a computer-controlled variable valve timing engine, it makes no sense at all in any context. Regarding MAPs, I guess you are not talking about "Manifold Air Pressure sensors", which is the usual acronym as you spelled it out in capital letters (you even referred to "MAP signals" in your very next sentence of the same post, which if taken in the context it was presented would properly refer to Manifold Air Pressure signals - when you use the same acronym for 2 different things in the same post it is extremely confusing!). Here is an illustration of a typical fuel injection map: . Looking at it, you can see why it is called a map - it is in three dimensions and is similar to a topographical map of terrain. A map is not a program - it is a plot of tabulated data points. Superior to the rudimentary engine management of years past (before digital engine control), it takes into account additional information from the running condition of the engine and allows programming for varying load states, offering superior engine management compared to simple 2-dimensional curve plots of the past. This function is accomplished regardless of whether or not a "piggy-back chip" has been added. Such a chip is added only for modifications beyond stock, and even then only when the OE chip is not itself programmable. Better alternatives do exist that completely replace the stock ECU with a stand-alone system - but they are only for advanced users who understand and can make their own maps. In general use now is changing the fuel/air ratio via closed-loop control by utilizing O2 sensor feedback.As far as a blanket statement "In general use now is changing the fuel/air ratio via closed-loop control by utilizing O2 sensor feedback" ?? Would like an explanation how that is accomplished. Open/closed loop O2 sensor voltage output to the ECU is fixed in transition and is not variable except at 80% to WOT when the O2 sensor input defaults to open loop voltage, controlled by the ECU. There is no feedback. A Unichip or similar can control at what point this O2 sensor shift occurs based on the downloaded programmed MAP and the signals it delivers to the ECU. Yes - it is a blanket statement, and one that should not need explanation to anyone who takes even a minute to think about why a manufacturer would include an oxygen sensor. The amount of oxygen in the exhaust is an analog of how much fuel and air go into the engine (which defines the fuel/air ratio). The measured values of oxygen content in the exhaust are fed back into the engine management algorithm to adjust the amount of fuel being injected - which is the definition of "closed loop". Open loop systems did not utilize an oxygen sensor to monitor exhaust - having no such feedback is what defines "open loop". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Wow this got technical quick and way over my head. I just simply put the plate on to block the exhaust gas until I can scrounge the money for a new egr valve. The inside was caked in carbon so there was no flow even if the valve worked. I was just wondering if having no egr would be bad on the engine that's all. No worries man - some people get a kick out of gaining a deeper understanding of how this stuff works, while some just want to make it work and forget about it. Take what you need, and come back later for reference if you want to - I think that is what the general readership does. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimoshel Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Any body here besides me Google 'Oyaji' Interesting. Altho the avatar did give a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Wow this got technical quick and way over my head. I just simply put the plate on to block the exhaust gas until I can scrounge the money for a new egr valve. The inside was caked in carbon so there was no flow even if the valve worked. I was just wondering if having no egr would be bad on the engine that's all. Way more technical than you need for sure. MY point is that without an EGR there with a pintle on it to stop the flow of exhaust into the intake manifold is only half the equation. What's happening with the exhaust that's travelling into the intake manifold with the EGR absent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Any body here besides me Google 'Oyaji' Interesting. Altho the avatar did give a clue. Please enlighten us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Any body here besides me Google 'Oyaji' Interesting. Altho the avatar did give a clue. Please enlighten us. Better yet, please don't. :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnuck Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Wow this got technical quick and way over my head. I just simply put the plate on to block the exhaust gas until I can scrounge the money for a new egr valve. The inside was caked in carbon so there was no flow even if the valve worked. I was just wondering if having no egr would be bad on the engine that's all. Way more technical than you need for sure. MY point is that without an EGR there with a pintle on it to stop the flow of exhaust into the intake manifold is only half the equation. What's happening with the exhaust that's travelling into the intake manifold with the EGR absent? If you put a flat plate over the 2 holes, preferably with a gasket to seal it, there is no exhaust flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Wow this got technical quick and way over my head. I just simply put the plate on to block the exhaust gas until I can scrounge the money for a new egr valve. The inside was caked in carbon so there was no flow even if the valve worked. I was just wondering if having no egr would be bad on the engine that's all. Way more technical than you need for sure. MY point is that without an EGR there with a pintle on it to stop the flow of exhaust into the intake manifold is only half the equation. What's happening with the exhaust that's travelling into the intake manifold with the EGR absent? He said he "put the plate in to block the flow exhaust gas", so I guess that was an EGR port blocking plate. If I got him right, there should be no admission of exhaust gas into the intake manifold now, so your point (albeit a good one) should be a non-issue now. I just removed a bad EGR valve and replaced it with an EGR block-off plate I made from some quarter-inch aluminum scrap yesterday. Are these generally available, and if so, where? If so I could have saved myself the trouble by simply buying one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oyaji Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Any body here besides me Google 'Oyaji' Interesting. Altho the avatar did give a clue. Please enlighten us. Better yet, please don't. :yes: Stings a bit, doesn't it? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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