Jerry Forrester Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I guess I've been bragging on my 'manche too much lately. 1991 4.0 HO, 5 speed 2WD, 257,000 miles. Four days ago, late in the day, I was stopped in traffic. I noticed the engine idling rough. The light turned green and the four cars in front of me made it through the light and I made it as far as the white line just before the intersection when the 'manche would go no more. The 20 or so cars behind me started helping me get the 'manche started by blowing their horns (didn't help). The urban outdoorsman (homeless person) sitting beside the road helped me push the 'manche into the Chevron station there on the corner. I got the same outdoorsman to listen at the gas filler to see if he could hear the fuel pump running when I turned the ign. switch on, he said yes, for about 2-3 seconds. Good, that's the way it's supposed to work. I popped the fuel line off at the fuel manifold and there was pressure there. I turned the ign. switch on and right back off and gas shot out of the fuel line quite well. Hooked the line back up. Called my cohort, Robert, to bring the trailer. He was there within 20 minutes. I looked in my Haynes manual and it said check the crankshaft sensor with an ohm meter and if it reads 'open', it is good. I did and it did (read open). Robert's 28 year old son, Tim, makes his living repairing computer controlled vehicles and has been to many different classes for the same. He has all the equipment to check the systems. He came by after he got off work Wednesday evening and hooked his 'stuff' to the 'manche. He says the crankshaft sensor is showing to be bad. I tell him the Haynes manual says it's good. He says he doesn't care and his equipment says it's bad. That night I order a CSS from O'Riley's and pick it up Thursday morning (almost $60 with tax). Install the CSS and there's no change, still will not run. Tim come back Thursday evening with his 'stuff' and after a half an hour or so says "It's the stator in the distributor and you have the disassemble the distributor to get to it. I call O'Rileys and they say the stator is $38 and the rebuilt distributor is $59. I figure for the $21 more I'd get the rebuilt distributor. Did that, didn't help (still won't run). I get Robert to help me check the fire coming out of the plug wires. I hand him a phillips screwdriver to put into the plug wire and I crank the engine over. He yells and throws the screwdriver across the shop. I had inadvertently given him a screwdriver with the metal shank going all the way through the handle. I got another screwdriver and we checked it again. He said there is very little spark. I asked him why he had jumped and yelled so much before and he said evidently very little spark will still light you up. I go to O'Riley's and get a new coil. Install it and the 'manche still won't run. we check the spark again and are getting an inch or so of spark, but it's orange, not the blue that it's supposed to be. I think that's because the battery is getting weak by now. Spins over like the plugs are flooded. Pull number one and it's dry. Had to stop there and call it a day. I am thinking that the injectors are not working. What would cause that??? So far, $60 CSS $60 distributor $30 coil What's next? thanks in advance, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffN Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 check for injector pulse with a noid light, also if it feels like it turns over faster than normal pull the oil cap while someone cranks the engine and make sure your valves are moving and you didn't break the timing chain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallisek Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 I had a weird starting issue which all I needed to do was check the codes, as pointed out by fellow members. Disconnect your battery and let it sit for about 10 minutes. Reconnect, attempt to start. Peform procedure listed below viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29857 Thew code 54, distributor sync sensor. Replaced it and all is well. Did you already check fuel pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87mjdriver Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I am sorry, but you were looking for help and in the process I was laughing so hard it brought tears to my eyes. its ironice that you tested you CSS with a Multimeter and it checked good, and robert said I don't care my stuff saids its not. in the end his stuff was wrong, you paid for a new CSS and got a laugh/payback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Update. I checked the codes by turning the ign. switch on three times and got an eleven and a fifty four. That's the CSS and CPS. I have replaced both of those with new items. I then disconnected the battery for ten minutes to erased the codes. Now all I get when I check the codes is the code twelve that starts the sequence and code fifty five to end the sequence. Still won't run. Checked the injector harness with a noid light. Has pulse. won't run. Checked fuel pressure. 40 pounds. won't run. Locked and unlocked the passenger door with the key. won't run. Cleaned the plugs. won't run. Removed the starter. Checked all the flywheel teeth. All good. won't run. Checked the spark from the plug wires. Good strong spark,(more than an inch) but it's orange, not blue. won't run. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffN Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 did you make sure the rocker arms are moving up and down while someone cranks it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 did you make sure the rocker arms are moving up and down while someone cranks it? Yes, the rockers are moving. The cam is turning. The distributor is turning. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Another thing. The tachometer is not moving while I am trying to start the engine. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Just to rule it out, do a fuel delivery test .......... Remove the air intake and pour a little gas into the throttle body. Crank engine. If it momentarily starts/runs you have a fuel delivery problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Another thing.The tachometer is not moving while I am trying to start the engine. Jerry Do you know anybody who has another Jeep and or it's ECM you could barrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Just to rule it out, do a fuel delivery test .......... Remove the air intake and pour a little gas into the throttle body. Crank engine. If it momentarily starts/runs you have a fuel delivery problem. Since the engine is firing and seems to be getting the spark at the correct time, if I pour gas onto the throttle body, I'm sure the engine will run. I will try that tomorrow. But that's still not going to tell me what it takes to fix it. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Do you know anybody who has another Jeep and or it's ECM you could barrow? No, not one that will interchange with my 'manche. There is an auto repair shop a half mile up the road from me. Operated by Scott. Scott is one of the best automotive mechanics in the area and is a personal friend. He has a customer's Dodge Caravan in his shop with all the same symptoms (codes) as my 'manche. He has done all the same things to the Caravan as I have to the 'manche plus, he has tried a new ECM with no positive response. Jerry A little history about me.... I'm street rodder and an ex-dirt track race car builder and driver. In the 40's my dad (he was also a dirt tracker) had a auto repair shop next door to our residence and I more or less grew up in that garage. I'm 68 years old and have been working on cars and trucks all my life. I was a mechanic in the Marine Corp in the sixties and a couple of other times in my life that's how I made my living. I am a retired mechanic from the trucking industry and receive a retirement check from the Teamsters Union for my service. If this was a carburated-non computer car there would be no problem. I can read and follow instructions but just don't have much experience repairing computer controlled cars. I guess you would call me 'old school'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automan2164 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The MJ has 'puters in it? Nah. These electronics are like the Abacus of auto technology... Pretty simple once you get how things talk to each other... Now that friggen '09 Impala I have in my bay at work... What a nightmare. Rob :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Had the same problem a couple of weeks ago when my 91 stumbled and died about 1/4 mile from the house. It would crank and crank but not start. Got it home with a neighbor's help. After going through basically the same things you have already done, I stuck another coil on and it started right up. The old coil resistance readings checked out okay on the primary and secondary, I had spark at the plugs, and I had no fault codes. WTF? Plugged in the old coil in again, it still would not run. I still do not know what's wrong with the old coil and it checks out good as far as I can check it. So, try swapping a new coil in. Can't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallisek Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Also check the wiring on the coil pickup sensor. The little rubber proective booty thing in mine had shrunk from age, allow the two connectors to fit loosely. If I poked or wiggled the connectors the jeep wouldn't start or would stumble. It would also stumble on the bad patch of road by my house which was riddled with potholes. I'd hit a nasty one causing the wiring to move/bounce. Replaced the boot with an old one out of a spare sensor I had and it fits nice and tight now. Secured the wiring better as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Had the same problem a couple of weeks ago when my 91 stumbled and died about 1/4 mile from the house. It would crank and crank but not start. Got it home with a neighbor's help. After going through basically the same things you have already done, I stuck another coil on and it started right up. The old coil resistance readings checked out okay on the primary and secondary, I had spark at the plugs, and I had no fault codes. WTF? Plugged in the old coil in again, it still would not run. I still do not know what's wrong with the old coil and it checks out good as far as I can check it. So, try swapping a new coil in. Can't hurt. I've already installed a new coil. from my previous post...... I get Robert to help me check the fire coming out of the plug wires. I hand him a phillips screwdriver to put into the plug wire and I crank the engine over. He yells and throws the screwdriver across the shop. I had inadvertently given him a screwdriver with the metal shank going all the way through the handle. I got another screwdriver and we checked it again. He said there is very little spark. I asked him why he had jumped and yelled so much before and he said evidently very little spark will still light you up. I go to O'Riley's and get a new coil. Install it and the 'manche still won't run. we check the spark again and are getting an inch or so of spark, but it's orange, not the blue that it's supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 The MJ has 'puters in it? Like I said, I know nothing about computer controlled cars. I was under the assumption that the ECM was a computer, but whatdoiknow. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Just to rule it out, do a fuel delivery test .......... Remove the air intake and pour a little gas into the throttle body. Crank engine. If it momentarily starts/runs you have a fuel delivery problem. Since the engine is firing and seems to be getting the spark at the correct time, if I pour gas onto the throttle body, I'm sure the engine will run. I will try that tomorrow. But that's still not going to tell me what it takes to fix it. Jerry I was wrong. I removed the air intake from the throttle body and poured a couple of tablespoons of gas in there. It would not fire. I then poured a couple of tablespoons of lacquer thinner in and it still didn't fire. One more time I removed the distributor cap and turned the engine to where the rotor was pointing directly toward the #1 plug wire terminal. Looked at the TDC mark on the balancer and it was dead on. Next step, new cap and rotor. Now I'm grasping at straws. Maybe I need to check the air in the tires. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Here's my 'manche peeking his nose out of door #1. That's my '55 Stude Commander peeking out of door #2. For the last 18 months I've spent most on my extra time on restoring the Stude, but for the last 7 days my time has been split between the Stude and the 'manche. There's also my 425 Caddy powered pick up/dump truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 I've already installed a new coil. Crap! Have to learn to read (and retain) better. :oops: I know you have tried a new ECU. Look at the connector pins closely for recessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 I've already installed a new coil. Crap! Have to learn to read (and retain) better. :oops: I know you have tried a new ECU. Look at the connector pins closely for recessing. Nope, haven't tried a new ECU yet. RockAuto.com wants almost $180 for one. I didn't price one from O'Riley's yet. I did disconnect the ECU and inspect the connection for recessed connections and corrosion. It all looked good. I'm starting to get discouraged and need to slow down. While disconnecting the ECU, I had to remove the top of the air cleaner box and I broke the hard line going from the valve cover to the air cleaner. Drat, now there's something else I have to fix. I want to thank all you guys for the help y'all are trying to give. Keep the suggestions coming. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Forrester Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Next step, new cap and rotor. Jerry Installed the new cap and rotor. won't run.:-( Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankTheDog Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Have you checked all your fuses and relays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffN Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 You have fuel, you have spark, you have injector pulse, so compression is really the last thing to check. But since you are grabbing at straws you may check the exhaust backpressure, if the cat got completely clogged it will keep it from running. (have only seen that once). pop out the O2 sensor and see if it will start and idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACKED88 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Damn, you've got everybody stumped on this one. :dunno: Considering we're both old school, this might be like the blind leading the blind but I'm gonna try to help the best I can and in doing so we'll learn as much as we can along the way. OK, You've already replaced the distributor in which came with a new Ignition Control Module. The ICM in the distributor has outputs for a tach signal to the tachometer and a high voltage signal from the coil to the distributor. The only reason I'm mentioning the ICM is because you said you aren't getting any tech signal while cranking. Check all the wires going to/from the distributor plus those connected to the ICM. (thinking out loud) You have injector pulse. You put fuel directly into the throttle body eliminating a fuel delivery problem and you have spark. Air, plus fuel, plus compression, plus spark = run. Unless .... everything is out of time. Even then you should at least get a pop or backfire out of it. You said number one on the distributor is in time with the crank. OK, since the distributor is turned by the cam in which is turned by the crank via the timing chain theoretically the cam should be in time. Even if it's not .... as before, you should at least be getting a pop or backfire out of it. I have a couple of other ideas but lets go back to your crank pos sensor. I know you've replaced it but did you check the wires for damage like being burnt/melted on the exhaust manifold? Be sure to check the harness plug too. Naturally we're hoping it's not the high dollar ECU. When and if it comes to that I'd try a used one before throwing another $180 bucks at it. Surely your local j/y has a few 91-96 (I think) XJ's you can get one from. Hmmm .... the 5 speed and auto might use a different unit. Source .... O'reilly Auto Parts. Yes, the Cardone and BWD have different part numbers. However the ACDelco shows the same number. Don't give up. :ack: Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now