Finally got my carpet up...suggestions on minor floor repair

[phenryiv1]

Is this something that I should really worry with too much, or should I just hit it hard with rust inhibitor and rubber undercoating?

 

I also intend to undercoat the truck from the bottom. The question is, should I cut away any of this rot and rivet in new stuff, or what? I have never done body work before.

 

 

 

[djag12]

I wished mine looked like that. Anyway, most of the guys seem to patch any holes (check for softspots with something pointy) than it seems to be POR15 and Herculiner (or some sort or bedliner). I had to get new pans put in. But than I followed the other two steps.

[phenryiv1]

One other thing...the driver's side seat bracket was so bad that part of the front inner foot was rusted through. I am not happy with my father for not taking better care of this...

 

I wished mine looked like that. Anyway, most of the guys seem to patch any holes (check for softspots with something pointy) than it seems to be POR15 and Herculiner (or some sort or bedliner). I had to get new pans put in. But than I followed the other two steps.

Yeah, I have seen worse. It is odd that no two seem to rust the same place or in the same manner...This was my most recent 95 XJ:

 

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[brdhntr]

the rust spots in the xj and mj's is due to a very poor drainage set up. instead of draining off or being absorbed and dried, it sits in the bottom and rusts. the carpet is not enough to absorb it and they really use poor or no padding and protection there. some car companies use a protective layer under the paint in the foot wells, some even use a thin material on the metal to absorb the moisture, they even paint it! but jeep used nothing on these so they rust.

 

from the pic's i can see some holes, those must be fixed. i would start by sandblasting both sides of the metal. that will tell you what metal is thick enough to hold a patch job. once it's sandblasted, treat it with a product like por15. if you don't know how to weld, you can use short rivets to put the new metal in place. you should cut out around the holes before you treat with the por15. i recommend making your patch large enough to cover everything and i'd go much thicker with the sheet metal. treat everything with por15(or similar). use seam sealer in the underside of the new sheet metal before you put it on the old stuff and that will prevent moisture from getting between the 2 pieces.

 

on the underside of the vehicle, use a bed coating and put it on thick. if you put it on thick enough it will even cover up the rivets poking through so know one will ever know you didn't weld it. you can even use the bead liner on the inside to prevent future rust and cover up any sign of the repair. it's a good looking, cheap, and easy job. :D

[phenryiv1]

from the pic's i can see some holes, those must be fixed. i would start by sandblasting both sides of the metal. that will tell you what metal is thick enough to hold a patch job. once it's sandblasted, treat it with a product like por15. if you don't know how to weld, you can use short rivets to put the new metal in place. you should cut out around the holes before you treat with the por15. i recommend making your patch large enough to cover everything and i'd go much thicker with the sheet metal. treat everything with por15(or similar). use seam sealer in the underside of the new sheet metal before you put it on the old stuff and that will prevent moisture from getting between the 2 pieces.

I don't have access to a sandblaster, but I can use a whire wheel on my compressor to knock off anything loose, and I don't mind doing a little cutting to get any soft stuff from around the existing holes. Everything that I have read recommends POR15 for the rust inhibitor, so that will definately be the route I take after prepping the metal.

 

I don't know how to weld, but I am comfortable using the rivet method, with a good sealer around the perimeter, of course.

 

Fortunately, this is not my daily driver, so I can afford the downtime. My wife is mad because I parked the Jeep on her side of the garage when I started this, but she knows it is only temporary.

 

on the underside of the vehicle, use a bed coating and put it on thick. if you put it on thick enough it will even cover up the rivets poking through so know one will ever know you didn't weld it. you can even use the bed liner on the inside to prevent future rust and cover up any sign of the repair. it's a good looking, cheap, and easy job. :D

My next question was going to pertain to what to do on the underside. I was going to either spray a ton of rubberized undercoating or do a roll-on bedliner. I think for the inside and the outside, bedliner is the way to go. Thanks for the guidance.

[Catatonic Comanche]

My driver's side was less rusty as the one that started this thread when I first pulled the carpet. I sanded every speck of rust the naked eye could see, doused it with a couple of cans of Rustoleum Rust Converter and coated it with bedliner paint.

 

Two years later, I noticed a stain under the gas pedal. I poked the stain with a heavy screwdriver which punctured a hole in the floor! :doh: I then started pounding around the hole with the end of a crowbar and this was the result of the damage that would ultimately require repairing:

 

 

Arc-welded floor pans! Good luck with this and please take it VERY seriously.

 

V/R

 

Paul

[maddzz1]

It is not worth making a new thread (yet), but how do you remove the panel at the top of this picture without breaking the clips:

 

 

There are push pins like the ones that hold the door panels on. So you can use the same tool that is used on doors or just pull on it gently until they pop out. I started in the middle instead of the ends and didnt have any problems.

I already broke one clip. I knew what kind of fastener they used, but I have always used a putty knife on plastic panels to pop those off. On the door panels, I just pry gently with my fingers. Neither worked on that back panel because I did not know where the clips were located. I need to go buy a panel puller tool. :mad:

 

Mine was loose so I didnt have any problem, but a few of the tabs that the pins slide into were already cracked. I have an extra one at home that I can get a pic of if you want so you can see where the pins are. LMK.

[phenryiv1]

My driver's side was less rusty as the one that started this thread when I first pulled the carpet. I sanded every speck of rust the naked eye could see, doused it with a couple of cans of Rustoleum Rust Converter and coated it with bedliner paint.

 

Two years later, I noticed a stain under the gas pedal. I poked the stain with a heavy screwdriver which punctured a hole in the floor! :doh: I then started pounding around the hole with the end of a crowbar and this was the result of the damage that would ultimately require repairing: Arc-welded floor pans! Good luck with this and please take it VERY seriously.

 

V/R

 

Paul

My only hope about this not being too terribly bad is that the rust is only on the inside, as there was a leak in the door weatherstripping that led to a lot of water getting in over time. I banged around on this last night and except for right around the holes themselves, it seems to still be solid. From the underside, it still looks good.

 

I suppose I could replace the whole floor pan now, while I have the carpet out, but I am not a welder, nor do I really have access to one.

 

What might it cost to have a new floorpan welded in?

[Catatonic Comanche]

 

I suppose I could replace the whole floor pan now, while I have the carpet out, but I am not a welder, nor do I really have access to one.

 

What might it cost to have a new floorpan welded in?

 

I am not a welder either. I know a guy who is used to arc-welding floor pans into old Willys and he laughed at my MJ's floor damage compared to what he is used to repairing. Anyway, here is a thread of a non-welded floor repair:

 

http://www.comancheclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8740&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

 

I think this guy did a really nice job using sheetmetal and machine screws. Please keep us updated with you repair progress.

 

:cheers:

 

V/R

 

Paul

[flint54]

In reply to original message, floor looks perforated in several spots. What to do depends on your intention for the truck. If your desire is for best long term solution, I think nothing short of replacement, PLUS improved coatings, are in order. If your goals are uncertain or shorter term, less effort is ok. The worst would be to either do nothing, or to do a "lick & promise" fix now, only to do it all over again sometime soon. Unless the metal is entirely sealed from oxygen the rust will continue to grow, and in my experience primers and undercoatings are inadequate. New pans are still available and pretty cheap (~$40 each). POR-15 is a great product for sealing metals, but good surface prep is crucial. It's not cheap and not easy to work with. If you get it on your skin, only time (long time) or surgery will remove it. If restoration isn't your goal, I suggest wire brush the hell out of it, twice, followed by liberal application of either Ospho (or POR's zinc phosphate conversion coating), followed by a good degreaser such as "marine cleaner", then epoxy in metal patches as you deem suitable, then POR-15 both sides, then uncercoat bottom and paint topside. Lot's of labor, probably $100 or so in dollars.

[Catatonic Comanche]

Unless the metal is entirely sealed from oxygen the rust will continue to grow, and in my experience primers and undercoatings are inadequate.

 

:agree: Nuke the rust at all cost!

 

[phenryiv1]

In reply to original message, floor looks perforated in several spots. What to do depends on your intention for the truck. If your desire is for best long term solution, I think nothing short of replacement, PLUS improved coatings, are in order. If your goals are uncertain or shorter term, less effort is ok. The worst would be to either do nothing, or to do a "lick & promise" fix now, only to do it all over again sometime soon. Unless the metal is entirely sealed from oxygen the rust will continue to grow, and in my experience primers and undercoatings are inadequate. New pans are still available and pretty cheap (~$40 each). POR-15 is a great product for sealing metals, but good surface prep is crucial. It's not cheap and not easy to work with. If you get it on your skin, only time (long time) or surgery will remove it. If restoration isn't your goal, I suggest wire brush the hell out of it, twice, followed by liberal application of either Ospho (or POR's zinc phosphate conversion coating), followed by a good degreaser such as "marine cleaner", then epoxy in metal patches as you deem suitable, then POR-15 both sides, then uncercoat bottom and paint topside. Lot's of labor, probably $100 or so in dollars.

So what about using rivets (as opposed to welding) to install the new pan? This is assuming that I cut away all of the bad part, leave as much overlap as possible (should have at least an inch of good metal, if my estimations are correct), seal WELL between old and new, and then liberally overcoat/undercoat the whole area.

 

Reason being, I simply don't have a welder, but a replacement floorpan at $40-50 is about the same price as buying sheet stock and cutting it to fit.

 

Will this work?

 

1. Lay the new pan in there,

2. mark the edges,

3. come in about 1-1.5" from the edge of the new pan and cut out the rot,

4. drill for the rivets,

5. apply a sealer between the new and old,

6. rivet it in place,

7. seal the overlap from under the truck, and

8. apply the undercoating and sealant to both sides

[brdhntr]

yes, that should do the trick. just make sure the edges of the old metal are totally clean. use the seam sealer between the 2 pieces of metal and around the edge of the old and new on both sides. por15 in, let it dry hard, then use bedliner on both sides. make sure you get the beadliner over all the metal thick. also bedliner for around 2-3" around the repair to prevent rusting on the outskirts of the repair.

 

as far as a sandblaster, you can get one very cheap (sometimes less than $20). all you need is an air compressor and it sounds like you've got one. you buy the head that comes with a suction tube. buy the sandblasting material (or just use silca sand). put the sandblasting material in a bucket with the end of the suction hose in it. connect the head to your air hose. blast away. you can also by a "speed blaster" at most tool shops, auto stores, etc., for about 15-20 bucks. these are very easy to use and small. you put the blasting material in it, hook it to your air hose and blast away.

 

the reason i recommend blasting is because you can get all the paint and rust off. using a grinder, sander, or wire brush can still leave some rust in pits. it is also much quicker and easier than trying to clean it up any other way. if you spend a few bucks and get a blaster, you'll enjoy it in the future. it is really money well spent.

 

cutting as much metal out as you can is a great idea. i would leave as much of a base as you can to rivet the new metal to. i wouldn't go less than 2" if it can be helped. if you go 4", that's going to give you more support and the rivets won't have much pressure on them. the smaller the base, the more pressure on the rivets.

 

you have a great idea of where to go with the repair, it should turn out nice.

[phenryiv1]

yes, that should do the trick. just make sure the edges of the old metal are totally clean. use the seam sealer between the 2 pieces of metal and around the edge of the old and new on both sides. por15 in, let it dry hard, then use bedliner on both sides. make sure you get the beadliner over all the metal thick. also bedliner for around 2-3" around the repair to prevent rusting on the outskirts of the repair.

 

as far as a sandblaster, you can get one very cheap (sometimes less than $20). all you need is an air compressor and it sounds like you've got one. you buy the head that comes with a suction tube. buy the sandblasting material (or just use silca sand). put the sandblasting material in a bucket with the end of the suction hose in it. connect the head to your air hose. blast away. you can also by a "speed blaster" at most tool shops, auto stores, etc., for about 15-20 bucks. these are very easy to use and small. you put the blasting material in it, hook it to your air hose and blast away.

 

the reason i recommend blasting is because you can get all the paint and rust off. using a grinder, sander, or wire brush can still leave some rust in pits. it is also much quicker and easier than trying to clean it up any other way. if you spend a few bucks and get a blaster, you'll enjoy it in the future. it is really money well spent.

 

cutting as much metal out as you can is a great idea. i would leave as much of a base as you can to rivet the new metal to. i wouldn't go less than 2" if it can be helped. if you go 4", that's going to give you more support and the rivets won't have much pressure on them. the smaller the base, the more pressure on the rivets.

 

you have a great idea of where to go with the repair, it should turn out nice.

I have heard a lot of mixed results on the use of bedliner material over the POR-15, but I will do some more research on it.

 

The sandblaster idea seems like a good idea. I love any excuse to get a new garage toy (though a welder may be a bit of a stretch!).

[flint54]

POR advocates the use of an "adhesion promoter" (my words for their product) when applying coatings over POR-15 but I have no experience with it. I've sprayed undercoating over POR-15 and time will tell how long/well it sticks. Someone else mentioned seam sealer, which I think is a really good idea for the "crotch" of the pinch seams, after they're scrupulously cleaned. I hate pinch seams. Where the outboard edge of the floor pan joins the inner rocker panel is a particularly susceptible one. While working underneath my truck I ask myself; "If I were a water molecule, how many ways can I find to penetrate this shell"?, and address every one I can imagine. Probably won't win the war, but will not give up without a good fight! I often dream about living in Arizona and having a large fleet of fine old vehicles, all pristine.

[phenryiv1]

I keep seeing mention of "seam sealer," but have never been sure what it is that people are referring to with that term. Are we just talking roofing adhesive (blackjack)?

 

Can someone shed some light?

[Pete M]

I don't know what blackjack is, but I once used roofing tar in my 88 and I can assure you that it is NOT to be used anywhere on a vehicle. What a mess it made. :( and it never did harden. It just remained a sticky, gooey mess. :fs1:

[phenryiv1]

I don't know what blackjack is, but I once used roofing tar in my 88 and I can assure you that it is NOT to be used anywhere on a vehicle. What a mess it made. :( and it never did harden. It just remained a sticky, gooey mess. :fs1:

Blackjack is basically roofing tar or adhesive in a tube that is applied with a caulking gun. It makes a huge mess if you don't know how to use it right. I have used it in roofing to seal around flashing and it is a pain to get off of skin, and it is a real pain if you have a cheap caulking gun.

 

As for other uses, I have also used it as a driveway sealer after running my dog's invisible fence. It does harden, but it takes about 24-48 hours to fully cure. If surfaces are properly prepped and it is properly applied, it can result in a very good seal.

 

If that is what people are calling seam sealer, then I am comfortable working with it and using riveted and/or screwed patches, but I still may look into the costs of having the floor cut and a new pan welded in place.

[flint54]

Regarding seam sealer, the product I've had good success with is called UNIFLEX, which comes in a standard size caulking tube.

 

Here's a site with info: http://www.carsystem.ca/shared_files/ca ... 20_gb_.pdf

 

It dries rubbery hard very quickly, it's paintable, and it goes on easily.

 

I bought mine from a good auto body supply shop, and recall it to cost around $10 for a tube.

[Pete M]

My experience with rust is that nothing will stop it once it's there. :( I have not tried the POR yet, and have high hopes for it come springtime. :D

[phenryiv1]

January 25, 2009 update about the floor:

 

I attacked the floor with a wire wheel for about 15-20 minutes today. With great pressure, I knocked loose a little bit more metal, but I mainly just removed a good deal of surfact rust. Where the edges look rough, I will be using a wire ball on the end of my drill to get back to solid metal, but I could not do any more with my wire wheels. Also, there is nothing but perfect paint under the rubber/foam flap behind the pedals.

 

This may be better than I had feared.

 

[brdhntr]

from the looks of it, there is probably more rust than you can see. take a scratch awl (or even a small screwdriver) and hit it with a hammer. don't hit it with all your strength, you don't need alot of force to tell you what you need. if the awl goes into the metal, your gonna have to replace that metal or cover it with some more. as you get through the top layer, that's when you find out how much rust is really there and how strong the metal is.

 

you'll want to get deep into it in a few spots to see where you're at. a grinder will help get it done faster. you really need to know what the metal is like so you can determine what you can rivet to and how deep you need to go for the por15 to work.

 

it's a fun job.

 

another option for you is to use aluminum instead of sheet metal for the fix. when the floor is already to go, put a piece of aluminum on top and one on bottom. sandwich the bad metal (that has been properly prepped and treated) between the 2 pieces of aluminum with your rivets. the aluminum won't rust ever again. do everything the same to prep it and treat the old metal and use the seam sealer. to seal it even better, you can use solder at the edges and solder it all the way around the new metal (you'll still use seam sealer).

 

just another option for you. :smart:

[brdhntr]

as far as seam sealer, it is not at all the same as "blackjack". blackjack is a tar type product used in roofing. it does come in both stuff that won't harden and stuff that will. i recommend you use actual seam sealer for autobody applications. it's pretty cheap and does what you want it to. you can pick it up at napa (they usually have it) or an autobody supply shop. it can come in a tube to go in your caulking gun. there is both flexible and hardening. for a repair like this, either will work.

 

seam sealer is what manufacturers use when assembling a new vehicle. it goes between the fenders and the body to keep a nice seal. it's also used in many other places on new vehicles where metal meets metal and to clean up and seal around welds. there is more of it than you know on new vehicles. it can be painted over or left as is.

 

seam sealer does trap moisture, so remove the rust and treat the metal before you use it. it can be used over paint, but you may have to use some steel wool or scotchbrite pads to scuff it up before applying the seam sealer, but it sticks to almost anything.

[phenryiv1]

Another update:

 

Today, I got home from work and found a nice little box of goodies on the garage stoop:

 

(2) pint cans of POR-15 in grey ($40),

(2) 8 oz bottles of marine clean, and

(1) 8 oz bottle of metal ready

 

Scheduled for delivery tomorrow is a gallon of brush- or roll-on undercoating for the bottom of the truck, after the repairs are made.

 

So now it is time to do the fix.

 

After going at the floor again with the wire wheels and a small hammer, nothing else broke loose or flaked off. It really looks like the majority of the metal is actually pretty good.

 

So my new plan is to use fiberglass patch to cover the holes. The whole floor will be cleaned and prepped and POR'd.

 

Do I use the POR-15, then the fiberglass, then more POR-15, or do I fiberglass first and then use the POR over it? In what order should I use the products that I have?

[phenryiv1]

Bump from page 2 about the post above...please.