brake reservoir sediment (red mud, rust, ???)

[brucecooner]

15 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

Brake fluid gets everywhere when troubleshooting. I had to paint the entire right side of my engine compartment after I did the WJ brake upgrade.

 

Oh my gosh, it's like the stuff has a mind of its own, or anit-gravity properties. I swear it will start climbing out of the bottle if you leave the cap off by mistake.

 

15 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

Diagnosing the braking situation was not an enjoyable process, but to me it sounds like your passenger front brake line is clogged or passenger side speed bleeder has failed. One of my speed bleeders failed because of over-tightening, making the hole into a line. Fluid did not flow well after this.

That was my best guess after thinking about it, since these new bleeders are an unknown quantity. There was plenty of air in the front lines.

I had pushed some fluid out from the top side of the line before installing the bleeders, so it's possible the bleeder was effectively blocked and the cylinder was just gulping air back from the line. I found out after going out of my way to get the set from Napa that the local Advance has them too, I may try a set from there.

 

15 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

The passenger side front line runs from the back of the master cylinder block along the top back of the firewall, under the firewall seam and then down to the passenger front wheel. Every brake line in my '88 had failed when I was diagnosing my brakes, except this passenger front brake line. The armored brake line tends to hold dirt and debris close to the line and rot it out.

15 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

Originally, before I even tried the WJ booster + master upgrade, my  dual chamber MC was full of mud. I cleaned it out with paper towels and added new dot3 fluid, then pumped and pumped. The fluid came out brown on the driver side rear. After a half a quart, the fluid looked a little less brown, but the line exploded and started spewing out fluid from 2 pin holes in the brake line just about around the fuel filter area. At that point, my brother and I decided to replace every armored brake line on the vehicle. The passenger brake would flow fluid just fine, was not the armored kind and on inspection looked to be just fine, so I am still using it today. I used nicopp nickel-chrome line for all the replacement brake lines, you can find it online or at the auto parts store. It's nicopp CNC-325 or often labeled by the parent company, AGS.

I replaced most of the lines on mine.  The front lines are completely new from the cylinder all the way out to the wheels. I union'd to the rear bypass line close to the firewall, as that bypass line was fairly clean looking and getting a line down to the frame rail from up high was nigh impossible. Also, my gas tank skid plate's front high bracket currently will not come around some fuel lines from the tank, making it nigh impossible to remove without cutting the bracket free (which I may do in the future).

So I was happy to re-use that bypass line.  But right after the line comes from behind the tank/plate, I re-ran lines from the old T all the way out to the axles. (there's a picture back up the thread of my rear work).  I did put gravel guard/armor on all the rear lines, slightly complicated things but it looks nice.

None of my lines were rusted, on the outside, the armor did have plenty of grease in it, but this truck was never offroaded which probably saved the lines.

 

I used the NiCopp line everywhere too, pretty easy to work but it took some finesse to flare. Also the softer stuff wouldn't flare at all, just crushes in the tools.

I had to get the S.U.R.R stuff from Summit to have any luck flaring, and even then I'd get little burrs on step 2.  Copious use of die grease gave me the best results (and thoroughly cleaning my lines after flaring to remove the grease).

My flares have been sealing at the fittings without leaks so far. *fingers crossed*

 

My master cylinder was full of mud too (that was what started my whole calamity), but it was the internal state of my lines that led me to do all this work.

The lines were all beautiful and new looking on the outside, even had the original protective coating, but inside they were nasty.

 

15 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

I also had what I thought was a "leak" down the booster front, but it was from me accidentally not holding the MC level and spilling some onto the surface of the booster. Unfortunately, some of the fluid entered the front of the booster and that booster was no longer fit for use (brake fluid eats rubber).

Same here.  After removing the cylinder it didn't look like any had gone inside the booster. I stuffed a paper towel in the booster hole and shot the area with brake cleaner, but I still plan to give it the wet towel wipe down and wash as well as I can before re-installing the cylinder.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

I understand your pain and shear frustration with your vehicle. I've been working on my comanche for a year straight and it just finally passed inspection. It was a lot of work and stupid little things that added up to a lot of time and headaches. Hopefully your headaches should be over soon.

 

I am by no means a master at doing this, but in my opinion, your bleeder may have failed or your front brake line is clogged. I wish you the best of luck man! I know the pain all too well.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but man I've learned more than I ever thought there was to know about brakes.

Your info about the booster rod was no doubt critical to getting this done right, big thanks for that.

 

Also, hats off to you for sticking with it for a year. 

Part of me is "done" with the truck, but it's really just working on brakes I'm done with.

I enjoyed every one of the couple hundred miles I put on it before starting this never ending brake job.

The way it sounds and handles and moves (and looks) are just great.

Well, except for the times it heat soaked on me, that's not fun. :)

And that's what I really really want, to get to drive it again.

 

 

[brucecooner]

Job is done. My brakes are still crap. 

I think maybe Comanches just have crappy brakes unless fixed by someone who knows what they're doing (i.e. not me)

Anyway, another long rambling pissed off rant about my brake job follows. 

I did learn something about master cylinders, that everybody here probably already knows.

 

I pulled off the new master cylinder to bench bleed it again. I had lots and lots of little bubbles coming out of the ports for both chambers, which is normal.  While on the bench however I found that depressing the piston produced NO flow in the rear chamber (that supplies the front brakes). The front chamber would make a geyser out of the internal port that you could see on the surface of the fluid in the chamber.  The rear chamber never did this.  I was also set up with the bleed kit with fittings that attach to tubes that go back into the reservoir.  The rear chamber never pushed a drop of fluid up the tubes.

 

I took back the 1st cylinder to Autozone and they replaced it without any fuss. Good ole Autozone.

 

So I set up the 2nd cylinder to bench bleed and got the EXACT SAME behavior, NO FLOW from the rear chamber.  Also, the front chamber (rear brakes) of cylinder #2 (try to keep count) kept pushing out little white flakes of...something.

 

So I took master cylinder #2 back. The guy at the counter said the little white flakes were probably dried grease, they grease the seals so that while sitting on the shelf they don't dry out.  So the fact even the sealant had dried told me the seals had probably had a long time exposed to air, which told me I didn't want that cylinder anyway.  I also explained the neither of the cylinders I had gotten there would push fluid in the rear chamber and the guy said the only thing that would explain that is a bad cylinder. In the back of my mind I figured I was missing something but, whatever, I didn't want the cylinder to push more little white flakes into my brake lines so I just returned it and got my money back.  They didn't even fight me on it. Good ole Autozone.

 

So I figured I'd try a different store and got a new (not reman) cylinder at Napa this time.  It's a considerably heavier unit than the Autozone one, but hardly any surfaces on it are machined. Even the insides of the chambers are rough as sandpaper.  But, at least the grease on the bottom of the rubber cap seal was still wet, I took that as a good sign.

 

I put the Napa cylinder on the bench and, yet again, the rear chamber (front brakes) didn't push a drop of fluid into the bleeding line.  More swearing, throwing tools around. I'm following the instructions, doing what I see in the videos and not getting results, god how upsetting.   So I read the instructions again and see that you push the rod in "3/4 to 1 inch".

Okay, I was being super careful and pushing the rod in about a half inch at most.  I put the push rod I was using in till it touched the piston and marked it at the cylinder flange.  I then made another mark an inch back from that one so I'd have a depth gauge.

 

What I learned was the the rear chamber (front brakes) did not even START pushing fluid until the rod was about 3/4 inch depressed.  I guess this is by design? Maybe because the lines to the rear are longer they push first to compress the fluid in the extra length of line? 

 

But yeah, not a single piece of instructions nor instructional video mentioned this fact.

 

Whatever, at least I was getting the piece of crap to push air bubbles through the rear line now. 

The instructions and videos I'd watched said you'd see bubbles come out of the internal ports for maybe 15 minutes, but what I found was that it took like, an hour of working the piston until no more bubbles came out.

Also, those jackholes on youtube would say "work it until you get five strokes without air coming out of the fitting."

I NEVER, EVER got more than two strokes that were solid fluid.  It would be like, stroke, stroke, air. 

God I was so tired of standing over that stupid cylinder for more than an hour slowly working that piece of crap to try and bleed it.

I finally got it so that no more air bubbles came out of the internal ports so I was like, eff it, and threw it back on the truck.

 

I was actually able to bleed the brakes this time, in that the flow through the bleeders was solid with no bubbles.

The pedal stiffened up, some, but still goes down quite a ways, and even with the new proportioning valve open all the way the rears don't lock up.  Basically the brakes are back in the same crappy state they were in when I bought this piece of junk.

 

I don't know, maybe there's air somewhere still, but I bled and bled at the fronts and rears with no sign of any more bubbles.

 

I adjusted the booster rod out to about an inch, it should be resting against the piston now, if the first half inch of travel engages the rears, maybe it's a sign the shoes aren't adjusted right.  But I have them slightly dragging the drums so, whatever.

 

But yeah, I can just jam on the pedal and at no point is the thing coming to a stop good and quick.

Every time I think I know what to do, read the instructions, watch the videos....there's some other, little detail that I don't know. 

 

Seriously, how do people own these things without pulling all their hair out? What keeps men from sending a few high caliber rounds through the radiator and putting themselves and any future owners out of the misery of Jeep ownership?

 

Whatever, it sort of stops, as poorly as it ever did.

But hey, after putting on two boosters, three master cylinders, new calipers, new rear brake hardware, new hoses, several feet of new brake line, I have fixed the original problem in that the brake booster no longer leaks.

So I've spent hundreds of dollars and over six months of evenings and weekends to fix a leaking brake booster withOUT improving my brakes one iota! 

God I love owning this thing.

[87MJJeep]

Such a nightmare.  Owning old cars and one with peculiarities can turn us into masochists.  I guess it beats being a stamp collector.  No offense to stamp collectors everywhere. ;)

[gogmorgo]

If you’ve got somewhere you can do it safely, big parking lot or otherwise, get up to some speed in reverse, 10-15mph, and give it a good solid stop. Repeat a couple times. Should adjust up your brakes for you. Rear drums never work because no one ever stops hard enough in reverse to adjust them. When installing new drums/shoes what I typically do is adjust them up until I can just barely slide the drum on, then give it a few good stops in reverse once everything is reassembled to make sure they’re adjusted. 

[Salvagedcircuit]

6 hours ago, gogmorgo said:

If you’ve got somewhere you can do it safely, big parking lot or otherwise, get up to some speed in reverse, 10-15mph, and give it a good solid stop. Repeat a couple times. Should adjust up your brakes for you. Rear drums never work because no one ever stops hard enough in reverse to adjust them. When installing new drums/shoes what I typically do is adjust them up until I can just barely slide the drum on, then give it a few good stops in reverse once everything is reassembled to make sure they’re adjusted. 

This is indeed a valid method. Did this with my '97 chevy astro rear drums. Worked like a charm.

[brucecooner]

7 hours ago, 87MJJeep said:

Such a nightmare.  Owning old cars and one with peculiarities can turn us into masochists.  I guess it beats being a stamp collector.  No offense to stamp collectors everywhere. ;)

Oh, bringing this thing home is the most masochistic thing I've ever done by far.

I was never into stamps either, but it's probably a smarter hobby.

 

6 hours ago, gogmorgo said:

If you’ve got somewhere you can do it safely, big parking lot or otherwise, get up to some speed in reverse, 10-15mph, and give it a good solid stop. Repeat a couple times. Should adjust up your brakes for you. Rear drums never work because no one ever stops hard enough in reverse to adjust them. When installing new drums/shoes what I typically do is adjust them up until I can just barely slide the drum on, then give it a few good stops in reverse once everything is reassembled to make sure they’re adjusted. 

 

11 minutes ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

This is indeed a valid method. Did this with my '97 chevy astro rear drums. Worked like a charm.

Noted!  I'll have to give this a shot when I figure the OTHER NEW problem out (idling like a freight train).

[gogmorgo]

15 hours ago, Salvagedcircuit said:

This is indeed a valid method. Did this with my '97 chevy astro rear drums. Worked like a charm.

I do it on all the old fleet vehicles when I bring them in for an oil change. Although there’s not too many of them left. Mostly small trucks from the mid 2000’s. 

[brucecooner]

On 5/16/2023 at 1:18 PM, gogmorgo said:

I do it on all the old fleet vehicles when I bring them in for an oil change. Although there’s not too many of them left. Mostly small trucks from the mid 2000’s. 

I gave that a shot this past Sunday.  Went down to some abandoned farm roads and got it going a pretty good clip backwards then slammed on the brakes good and hard.

I will say it brakes a little better now, but I still can't get anywhere close to locking anything up. 

 

I've wondered if the larger wheels and tires it came with might be adding enough weight to work against the brakes, but I doubt it. I'm overlooking something. 

 

The drums are new, so there's no wear-in.  So when putting them on I could slip the drums over the shoes and wiggle them side to side to see exactly how much play I had, and it was very little.  I also got out the calipers and checked the diameter across the shoes, it was well under 1/16th of an inch within the drums.  I did clean the drums really well before I put them on. 

 

The parking brake still goes down almost as far as before the brake job, which does make me doubt my adjustment.

I was thinking of getting one of those tools that measures inside the drums then shows you the same width to compare to the shoes.

 

But the fronts never come close to locking either, which makes me wonder if it's a pressure thing.

I adjusted the booster rod to touch the cylinder, or at least that's what my measurements were telling me.

 

[gogmorgo]

How much larger wheels and tires than stock? My ZJ on 31x10.5" AT's, same disc/drum as an MJ, will still lock the brakes. Or at least it cycles the ABS if I stop quick on pave. If you're turning 35's we might have a power issue.

[cruiser54]

Bruce, did you ever adjust the shoes manually? 

[brucecooner]

On 5/25/2023 at 10:21 PM, gogmorgo said:

How much larger wheels and tires than stock? My ZJ on 31x10.5" AT's, same disc/drum as an MJ, will still lock the brakes. Or at least it cycles the ABS if I stop quick on pave. If you're turning 35's we might have a power issue.

I checked, they're 235 75R15, about 28 inches in diameter. Bigger than stock but not that much bigger. Doesn't sound like tire weight is an issue.

 

17 hours ago, cruiser54 said:

Bruce, did you ever adjust the shoes manually? 

Yep.   I clicked the adjuster out until I could just slightly wiggle the new drums around on the shoes.  It sounds like they're barely dragging if you put the drum on and turn the wheel, but I don't know exactly what proper drag sounds like.

 

The pedal doesn't get stiff as you go further into it, which makes me think I've still got a bubble somewhere.

But the fronts and rears are on separate lines now, I would think if one line was air free then that line would cause the pedal to get stiff, but I could be wrong about that.

 

Is there a temperature I should see after a bit of hard braking?  I could shoot the IR thermometer at the drums and rotors and see if they're getting merely warm or good and hot.

[cruiser54]

Hold on. Did you do the brake adjustment with the wheels bolted on? 

[gogmorgo]

I would think it would get stiff, yeah, but at the same time while you’re bleeding brakes you get a pretty good amount of pedal movement when you crack a bleeder on a fully bled system.
 

When you’re adjusting brakes you don’t generally go only until you hear drag. Reason being the shoes can get off centre and you’ll only end up with one shoe dragging, making the noise. Usually you’ll want to adjust until they’re tight enough you feel resistance to turning the wheel, then back them off an amount. I don’t actually have a good answer as to how far to back them off. I’ve never gone and looked for one, it always seems further than I feel it should be, and it can be a little annoying to do, which is why I go for getting it close then relying on the self-adjusters to get it the rest of the way. But that requires self-adjusters that work and they do need to be close enough to correct adjustment for them to actuate. 
 

By all means follow through on any adjustment procedure Cruiser recommends. He’s got a ton more experience than I do. 

[brucecooner]

On 5/27/2023 at 5:18 AM, cruiser54 said:

Hold on. Did you do the brake adjustment with the wheels bolted on? 

 

Nope, I had the wheels off.  I was putting the drum off and on while working the adjuster wheel. But I did notice you have to put the drum fully onto the studs when feeling out the shoes, same as if the wheel was bolted on. 

If I have to adjust with the wheels on I'm definitely getting one of those curved tools, I "practiced" going through the slot with a flathead screwdriver while the wheel was off and it was hard to get in the adjust notches.

 

 

On 5/27/2023 at 3:08 PM, gogmorgo said:

I would think it would get stiff, yeah, but at the same time while you’re bleeding brakes you get a pretty good amount of pedal movement when you crack a bleeder on a fully bled system.
 

When you’re adjusting brakes you don’t generally go only until you hear drag. Reason being the shoes can get off centre and you’ll only end up with one shoe dragging, making the noise. Usually you’ll want to adjust until they’re tight enough you feel resistance to turning the wheel, then back them off an amount. I don’t actually have a good answer as to how far to back them off. I’ve never gone and looked for one, it always seems further than I feel it should be, and it can be a little annoying to do, which is why I go for getting it close then relying on the self-adjusters to get it the rest of the way. But that requires self-adjusters that work and they do need to be close enough to correct adjustment for them to actuate. 
 

By all means follow through on any adjustment procedure Cruiser recommends. He’s got a ton more experience than I do. 

I would adjust it out until I had some resistance to turning, then I think I was backing off 10 clicks.

The adjusters do turn easy. I did put a little copper anti-seize on the threads, but they still turned easily, I didn't want to impede the auto-adjust.

I'm not sure I had them close enough to the correct setting though for them to actuate though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cruiser54]

ALWAYS adjust with the wheels bolted on.