KJ alignment issues

[mjeff87]

Vehicle alignment question Subject vehicle: 2002 Jeep Liberty (KJ) Last weekend I replaced some very worn out upper ball joints and control arms (ball joints are cast into the CA's, not serviceable as a separate item like they are on virtually every other vehicle ever made). Vehicle tracked straight as an arrow both before and after the replacements, but I took it to a Firestone shop for an alignment anyway the other day. (I got hooked into their "lifetime free alignment" sales pitch when I bought tires from them a couple years ago....so I figured what the hell....). Got the vehicle back, they made some adjustments and gave me the printout. Great. But now it follows the crown in the road something terrible, mostly pulling fairly hard to the right if I'm in the far right lane on the interstate. If I switch to the center lane, the pull is noticeably less but still there a little bit. 2 lane secondary roads it pulls definitely right 100% of the time. I read somewhere on the Internet (so it must be true, lol) that the pull right is a "safety feature" designed to prevent crossing over the centerline and killing a bus full of nuns should you ever fall asleep or something like that. If that's really true, and 100% good alignment measurements cause that, it sucks. I'm obviously taking the vehicle back to the shop to ask them to correct this somehow, but what can they/will they adjust to fix it? I'd rather not get into an argument with them about it if I can help it, there were some pretty cool managers/service writers there in the past but they seem to have all moved on. Jeff

[mjeff87]

Here's the printout, for reference

[mjeff87]

And a pic of the TOASTED ball joints.  I was living on borrowed time, especially on the drivers side.  You can just about pop the ball out of the socket on that one, lol.

[Pete M]

those are pretty bad indeed.    

[mjeff87]

Yeah, no bueno.

 

I swapped the front tires side to side this morning before driving in to work, and now the pull is to the left (although not as severe as the pull right).  I'm going to swap front-to-rear this afternoon and see if the pull goes away.  I'm thinking it is tire-pull.

 

I'm also very politely arguing with FCA about the lower ball joints.  There was a recall done on them way back in the day and it shows mine were replaced under it back in 2006.  My passenger side lower has some play in it, and I'm sure the driver side isn't too far behind.  2 hours on the internet and phone with FCA yesterday about it, and they agreed to have a local dealership look at it.  I have to pay a "diagnostic fee" for them to check them, but if they determine they are bad (I know the passenger side is), they will refund my fee and replace them again under the same recall.  That seems more than fair to me.

 

I could replace them, and will if the dealership says they aren't bad enough (yet), I just don't feel like doing the work  Plus, if they do them for no charge to me, that would be great.  Either way, it'll have to get aligned again, and I more trust the dealership to do that than the Firestone....

[Pete M]

180k and all 4 are solid so fingers crossed.    but the lower boots are trashed.   I've hosed them down with grease in the hopes they can stay usable until I add in the lift (and replace all of the frontend parts).  

 

I saw a rumor that the rear lower arms might be getting a recall soon.  mine seem just fine but I'll take some free new bushings     

[dasbulliwagen]

3 hours ago, mjeff87 said:

Yeah, no bueno.

 

I swapped the front tires side to side this morning before driving in to work, and now the pull is to the left (although not as severe as the pull right).  I'm going to swap front-to-rear this afternoon and see if the pull goes away.  I'm thinking it is tire-pull.

 

I'm also very politely arguing with FCA about the lower ball joints.  There was a recall done on them way back in the day and it shows mine were replaced under it back in 2006.  My passenger side lower has some play in it, and I'm sure the driver side isn't too far behind.  2 hours on the internet and phone with FCA yesterday about it, and they agreed to have a local dealership look at it.  I have to pay a "diagnostic fee" for them to check them, but if they determine they are bad (I know the passenger side is), they will refund my fee and replace them again under the same recall.  That seems more than fair to me.

 

I could replace them, and will if the dealership says they aren't bad enough (yet), I just don't feel like doing the work  Plus, if they do them for no charge to me, that would be great.  Either way, it'll have to get aligned again, and I more trust the dealership to do that than the Firestone....

With the KJ lower ball joint recall, they won't do an alignment. Its not called for in the recall procedure. Ive done a hundred of them, never did an alignment because they don't pay us to do it.

[Pete M]

4 hours ago, mjeff87 said:

 

I swapped the front tires side to side this morning before driving in to work, and now the pull is to the left (although not as severe as the pull right).  I'm going to swap front-to-rear this afternoon and see if the pull goes away.  I'm thinking it is tire-pull.

 

 

are the tires all the same pressure?

[mjeff87]

4 hours ago, dasbulliwagen said:

With the KJ lower ball joint recall, they won't do an alignment. Its not called for in the recall procedure. Ive done a hundred of them, never did an alignment because they don't pay us to do it.

 

Really?  Wow.  If that's the case, I'll probably have to pony up for one then.  Thanx for the heads up

4 hours ago, Pete M said:

 

are the tires all the same pressure?

 

Yep, all of them are dead on at 33 psi.  I'm kinda anal retentive about tire pressure.....and a lot of other things 

[mjeff87]

Well, that ain't good.  Driver side forward rear pad decided it didn't want to be married to the shoe on the way home from work today.  Wedged itself inside the drum.....I kept smelling a "burning brakes" smell in traffic, thought it was some other vehicle.  Got home and in the garage, still smelled it.  Felt all the wheels and couldn't even touch the driver rear it was so hot, lol.

 

I know what I'm doing on Saturday now.  I HATE doing drum brakes.

[Pete M]

time to convert to disks   

[mjeff87]

Another "bonus" of the first edition model KJ

 

Ive thought about the disc conversion, believe me I have.

 

I can't really complain though...from everything I can see, these look like the original rear brake pads and drums.  125k, they don't owe me anything.  I was planning on letting the shop replace the shoes in a couple months when I took it in for inspection anyway.  I might just call them anyway to see if they can do them Saturday.  That's how much I love doing drums.

[HOrnbrod]

13 minutes ago, mjeff87 said:

Ive thought about the disc conversion, believe me I have.

 

Do it. You'll be glad you did, unless you're a masochist who loves the aggravations of drum brakes. 

[Pete M]

I never want to own Jeep drum brakes again.  part of me wants to convert the drums of the dana 35 on my MJ trailer just to make that statement true.     

[HOrnbrod]

I must admit, I did have some problems a few weeks ago when I changed the pads and rotors out. I have the Ford Exploder rear disk setup and could not get the rotors off. Beat the crap out of them and they wouldn't budge. I seldom use videos for problems, prefer the FSM's, but in this case the below video I found online saved my azz. Scroll to the 4 minute mark to see how it's done. It works great. 

 

[Pete M]

that's a neat trick!    

[mjeff87]

Neat trick, I'll have to remember that one.

 

Called shop, they're having a brake sale special going on.....$100.  As much as I like wrenching on things, that's too good an offer for me to pass up.  I'm dropping it off tonight after work for them to have all the fun with it, LOL.

 

I did slap the wheel back on it and drove it around the 'hood a bit.  I contemplated driving it to work today very carefully, but thought better of it and took my wife's car (had to drop her off at her work and am picking her up after).  It would be just my luck that the one time I needed to make a panic stop would be today and I'd kill a busload of nuns because I only have a half a brake on one side

 

I'll use my time saved tomorrow to hit the junkyard to look for a KJ donor for a disc conversion, after I cut the grass.

[HOrnbrod]

2 hours ago, mjeff87 said:

I'll use my time saved tomorrow to hit the junkyard to look for a KJ donor for a disc conversion, after I cut the grass.

 

[JeepcoMJ]

NEVER use direct replacement upper arms on a KJ.  Always spend the $450 on JeepinByAl stock height UAs, which have a parts store available moog upper ball joint.  One and done.

 

As far as your alignment issues, park on level ground and measure lower arm heights.  The alignment of the lower arms on chassis side is accomplished via a cam lock.  If they don't match, then the issue is arm geometry throwing it out of whack.

 

My alignment guy threw out the KJ factory specs and does them by feel, now...as he does with similar setups, because the factory specs don't account for the inevitable shifting of the front suspension crossmember over time throwing off their common measuring points.

[mjeff87]

Pat,

I know about the JBA arms, and thought about them.  But, considering the stock ones lasted a good 15+ years, I decided the extra price of the JBA's wasn't worth it to me.  This thing is a pavement queen and I'll never wheel it or abuse it (too much, lol).

 

I did rotate the wheels front-to-back and now it tracks straight again.  I'll be putting new tires on it in a couple months anyway, and I'll get it realigned then again (after the dealership decides if they'll put new lower ball joints on it for free next week, too).

 

 

[JeepcoMJ]

For free?

[mjeff87]

Hopefully, yes.

 

There was a recall on the LBJ's on mine, which was done back in 2006 by the previous owner.  Now, the passenger side one has some play in it, as reported by the shop that did my alignment.  I spent a couple hours on the internet and phone with DCA last week, and they agreed that if they were indeed bad again, that they would replace them again under the same recall campaign.  Caveat is that I have to take it to the dealership to have them inspect them and pay a "diagnostic fee" of some kind (probably an hour of labor).  If they confirm one or both are going bad again, they'll refund my fee and replace them under recall for no charge.

 

I can't really complain about that deal, if it holds true......

 

I'm taking it in on Monday, so I'll update once I know more.

 

[mjeff87]

And, for anyone following along, I did have the shop replace the rear shoes.  I also swapped the wheels front-to-rear and upped the pressure to 35 psi.  Now it tracks straight as an arrow, and my brakes are like brand new (I just replaced the front pads and rotors about 5K miles ago).

 

 

[mjeff87]

Update, took the KJ to the dealer yesterday.  They inspected the whole front end, everything is good, no need to replace the lower ball joints.  I suspect it was the tire shop just trying to make a quick $400 off of me......

 

I did change the oil in it on Saturday, and just happened to notice a nice ring of grease slung all around the tranny tunnel and the side of my TC soaked in grease  The rear CV joint on the front driveshaft was beginning to self-destruct.  The grease boot ripped and puked it's guts out.  I pulled the shaft last night to prevent anything catastrophic from happening until the new joint I ordered gets here tomorrow.