Internal Slave to External Slave Conversion

[Lowrange2]

Fellas,

 

I haven't been able to find my answer so hopefully you can help me.

 

I have an 88 2.5L AX-4 MJ. As much as I'd love to swap in the 4.0 AX-15 I don't have time for that right now.

 

I acquired the truck with a busted slave cylinder.

 

I didn't want to have to drop the transmission again so I swapped from the internal slave to the external slave cylinder. I replaced the RMS, clutch kit, new throw-out, 94 model bell housing with the fork and a new external slave/master cylinder pre-bled assembly.

 

I got it all bolted up and the clutch feels strange and I believe I know why.

 

I can press the clutch and start the truck in gear which tells me that the clutch is at least slipping. Once the truck is running I can't pull the trans out of gear or put it in gear which tells me that the clutch is not fully disengaging.

 

SO, I started trying to figure out what was different.

 

The truck is acting like I'm only pressing the clutch half way in. (And that's how the clutch feels...) That pointed my attention to the clutch master cylinder... I removed the master cylinder and compared it to the old one. The main thing I've noticed is that the pedal shaft on the NEW master is 1" shorter than the shaft on the OLD master. Set up this way I'm only pushing the shaft about half way in when I push the clutch to the floor.

 

I'm fairly certain that is causing my problem. I haven't tried it yet but I feel like if I were to disconnect the shaft from the pedal and push the shaft in by hand then I could shift the truck with it running. But I'd like to get the pedal working as my back is getting old and I don't think I could handle pushing the master cylinder in by hand every time I wanted to change gears. ;)

 

Now, my question to you is which clutch master cylinder did you use? Which vehicle did you find it on. I've figured out the hard way that the one on a 94 Wrangler is ever so slightly different than the one that I need. Am I correct in thinking that the master/slave assembly from a 94 XJ will help out here?

 

For reference:

 

This is the one that I have on the truck now and I'm having problems with. This one comes up when searching for a 94 2.5 Wrangler. Notice the difference in the mounting flange for the master cylinder.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0015

 

Now, I searched for a 94 XJ 2.5 and came up with a slightly different number and it appears to at least have the correct mounting flange on the master. I ordered it so I could measure the shaft that goes to the pedal. I guess we'll find out tomorrow when the part shows up.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... &ppt=C0015

[Harley]

don't have an answer for ya but I would stay away from oreillys parts. I recently went down that road and needless to say never again. Junk parts! I ended up busting a shift rod. If ya wanna know more I'll tell ya the story.

[Lowrange2]

I'd love to hear it. I've had good and bad experiences with O'Reilly's parts. Over time I've learned what to stay away from. I've never really used these parts but I didn't notice a huge trend in Power Torque parts coming in for warranty. I feel like any parts store is going to have good parts and bad parts. That's the bad thing about dealing with aftermarket or remanufactured parts. They're hit and miss. Personally, I hate Advance because they hire idiots that don't know how to change a tire. Napa is alright but they're slow.

 

Tho, I guess I must tell you, I managed an O'Reilly's for about 4 years. So I may be a little biased. I don't work for them now but I did and I've seen a lot of junk come back in so it has me on my toes. I'll tell you, never buy an A-1 Cardone remanufactured water pump. ;)

[Harley]

Well it started out was just going to replace a leaking master. Simple half hour project, right?

I wish! I replaced it, couldnt get pressure. Exchanged it for another one, STILL no pressure.

Exchanged it again plus got a slave. Bled some more and you guessed it, no pressure. Exchanged them both either once or twice more (can't remember now) and finally hit the right combo and was able to bleed and get pressure back. It worked OK for a few days and then it started to shift a little hard. It got to the point where it wouldn't go into 1st anymore and finally, while in a parking lot one day I tried to get it into 2nd and I snapped the 1st/2nd shift rod in half.

That all happened within about a week and a half.

So,(lucky me) got to drop the trans, gut it to replace the busted rod, install a new clutch put it all back together, return to Oreilly's with the master and slave to get my money back.

Now everything seems to be just fine.

 

Needless to say I wasn't too pleased that a simple half hour project turned into about a weeks worth of work in my spare time to get it back up and running.

I'll never buy parts from them ever again after that.

[Jeep Driver]

The one on my truck is from a 94 XJ and I have a lose one from a 95 Wrangler. I'll compare later and get back to you.

[Lowrange2]

Well it started out was just going to replace a leaking master. Simple half hour project, right?

I wish! I replaced it, couldnt get pressure. Exchanged it for another one, STILL no pressure.

Exchanged it again plus got a slave. Bled some more and you guessed it, no pressure. Exchanged them both either once or twice more (can't remember now) and finally hit the right combo and was able to bleed and get pressure back. It worked OK for a few days and then it started to shift a little hard. It got to the point where it wouldn't go into 1st anymore and finally, while in a parking lot one day I tried to get it into 2nd and I snapped the 1st/2nd shift rod in half.

That all happened within about a week and a half.

So,(lucky me) got to drop the trans, gut it to replace the busted rod, install a new clutch put it all back together, return to Oreilly's with the master and slave to get my money back.

Now everything seems to be just fine.

 

Needless to say I wasn't too pleased that a simple half hour project turned into about a weeks worth of work in my spare time to get it back up and running.

I'll never buy parts from them ever again after that.

 

 

Well, you have to think... They did continuously swap out parts for you until they got it right... and you also have to consider that O'Reilly's doesn't make these parts. They just sell what they get on the shelf. I don't judge a parts store by it's individual parts. I judge the people that work there, their competency and it's managment.

[Lowrange2]

The one on my truck is from a 94 XJ and I have a lose one from a 95 Wrangler. I'll compare later and get back to you.

 

That would be awesome. Please do let me know.

 

I'm hoping the shaft on the XJ cylinder is going to be 5"s long. The YJ Cylinder is 4"-4.5" long.

 

Looking for the measurement from the back of the mounting flange to the center of the hole at the end of the shaft.

[Harley]

Yeah your right with that. Although they did start to put up a fuss and I had to argue with them a few times to get the exchange even though they were lifetime warranty parts. They also tried pinning it on me like I did something wrong to cause the parts to fail. Which in turn pissed me off even more than I was already at the situation.

It was a headache all the way around. I just pretty much lost faith in them selling reliable parts and the way they handled it.

[Lowrange2]

Yeah your right with that. Although they did start to put up a fuss and I had to argue with them a few times to get the exchange even though they were lifetime warranty parts. They also tried pinning it on me like I did something wrong to cause the parts to fail. Which in turn pissed me off even more than I was already at the situation.

It was a headache all the way around. I just pretty much lost faith in them selling reliable parts and the way they handled it.

 

Yeah, I've had similar issues in the past. I ended up calling the general manager once to straighten out an issue.

 

You just have to find a store and make friends with one person that understands cars and go back to the same person every time. A 'friend' will overlook a lot of things that a first timer wouldn't.

 

And trust me, no matter what they say... The counter person has complete control over how many times that part is exchanged. It's all up to their judgement.

 

I could warranty out the same part 200 times in a week to the same customer if I wanted to. Don't let them give you any of this crap about only honoring the warranty once.

[Abyx]

I actually had the same problem with my '91 XJ when I did the AX15 swap in it...I used a YJ MC+Slave pre-bled setup. It only worked half way.

 

My solution was to remove the clutch pedal, cut the spot welds on the hinge portion, 'rotate' the aparatus back about an inch, and re-weld it....worked like a charm for a year and 30,000 miles. I actually have the pedal out of my XJ in prep to swap it to my MJ, I can snap a pic later if you like.

[Lowrange2]

I actually had the same problem with my '91 XJ when I did the AX15 swap in it...I used a YJ MC+Slave pre-bled setup. It only worked half way.

 

My solution was to remove the clutch pedal, cut the spot welds on the hinge portion, 'rotate' the aparatus back about an inch, and re-weld it....worked like a charm for a year and 30,000 miles. I actually have the pedal out of my XJ in prep to swap it to my MJ, I can snap a pic later if you like.

 

See, I thought about that. But the problem is that the pedal is hiting the floor before it pushes far enough. The pedal doesn't have enough throw in it to do the Job.

 

If I did what you're talking about it looks like the pedal would bottom out on the pedal bracket assembly.

 

The only thing that looks feasible is a MC with a longer shaft.

 

Also, did you have to modify the mounting flange on the MC?

[Abyx]

I forgot there was a bit more to it than just cutting and welding the apparatus; I also had to dremel out the arm a little bit so as to clear the bracket assembly on the firewall. This DOES work, what happens is the pedal runs out of room before the MC is fully acuated; so if you extend the throw, so that the MC gets depressed more before the pedal hits the floor...it works.

 

Here are pictures of what I did at 2am in a desperate attempt to get to work the next morning -

 

 

 

Yes I did have to modify the flange on the MC...you trim the bottom half and re-drill the stud hole. There are a total of three holes in the firewall, they're all 1 inch apart from one another.

[Lowrange2]

I forgot there was a bit more to it than just cutting and welding the apparatus; I also had to dremel out the arm a little bit so as to clear the bracket assembly on the firewall. This DOES work, what happens is the pedal runs out of room before the MC is fully acuated; so if you extend the throw, so that the MC gets depressed more before the pedal hits the floor...it works.

 

Here are pictures of what I did at 2am in a desperate attempt to get to work the next morning -

 

 

 

Yes I did have to modify the flange on the MC...you trim the bottom half and re-drill the stud hole. There are a total of three holes in the firewall, they're all 1 inch apart from one another.

 

Yup, that's exactly what I did with the mounting flange.

 

The pedal mods... do I want to do that or get the right master... hmmmm.

 

Now, I see how it's possible since you can move the mounting point and the pedal seperately. For some reason I was thinking that the stud was on the pedal... You'd think I would have thought of that considering I stared at it for 2 hours last night.

 

 

I'd still like to know if the XJ master has a longer shaft.

[Abyx]

You can always get another pedal and do it. I was stuck with the YJ one so this was my only option. I also have the fully plastic assembly, bought as one unit so I was really stuck with it.

 

If you're local to me you can have the old pedal out of my MJ to cut up once I do my swap if that helps at all.

[Lowrange2]

You can always get another pedal and do it. I was stuck with the YJ one so this was my only option. I also have the fully plastic assembly, bought as one unit so I was really stuck with it.

 

If you're local to me you can have the old pedal out of my MJ to cut up once I do my swap if that helps at all.

 

 

Thanks man, ill probably return the part I bought and buy the xj one if its the right length. If not ill cut up my pedal.

[Lowrange2]

You can always get another pedal and do it. I was stuck with the YJ one so this was my only option. I also have the fully plastic assembly, bought as one unit so I was really stuck with it.

 

If you're local to me you can have the old pedal out of my MJ to cut up once I do my swap if that helps at all.

 

 

Thanks man, ill probably return the part I bought and buy the xj one if its the right length. If not ill cut up my pedal.

 

 

I'm really close to being fed up with this thing.

 

I got the new XJ master/slave cylinder from the parts store. The shaft on the master is the same length as the master that I pulled out originally. (5") I installed everything... (The XJ assembly fit MUCH better than the YJ assemble.)

 

Started the truck and now I can pull it out of gear but I can't put it back in gear. Something still isn't right.

 

Now, I'm starting to wonder if the throw out bearing is right... I REALLY don't want to have to pull all that stuff back down.

 

Also, I'm getting a faint grinding sound when I let off the clutch. Maybe something isn't where it's supposed to be inside the bell housing.

 

When I'm done with this there will be a complete list of part numbers made available online for this swap...

[Abyx]

Believe me man I'm pretty stuck myself. I started the swap on mine yesterday and whats preventing me from going forward is the pilot bearing Spacer, I can't get the thing out.

 

Maybe what you should try doing before you go any further is remove the clutch rod from the pedal armature and put it 'behind' the armature and use it to depress the MC as far as you can and have a helper try manipulating the shifter. That's what I originally did.

 

I just finished bolting in my modified YJ MC slave and modified pedal...everythig still lines up.

 

 

Where did you get your throwout bearing from? theres no reason they'd be different between years, its all the same drive train.

[Lowrange2]

Believe me man I'm pretty stuck myself. I started the swap on mine yesterday and whats preventing me from going forward is the pilot bearing Spacer, I can't get the thing out.

 

Maybe what you should try doing before you go any further is remove the clutch rod from the pedal armature and put it 'behind' the armature and use it to depress the MC as far as you can and have a helper try manipulating the shifter. That's what I originally did.

 

I just finished bolting in my modified YJ MC slave and modified pedal...everythig still lines up.

 

 

Where did you get your throwout bearing from? theres no reason they'd be different between years, its all the same drive train.

 

Pilot bearing spacer? I removed the fly wheel, set a socket on the pilot bearing and tapped it out and tapped the new one in. Replaced the RMS while I was in there. I'm not sure where there was a spacer at.

 

The XJ master has the correct throw now. It has to be right.

 

It still feel like the clutch isn't being pressed in far enough. I'm wondering if the "fork" in the bell housing has moved around.

 

Is it supposed to have a way to attach the fork to the pivot point opposite the slave cylinder?

[Lowrange2]

And you're right, parts lists call for the same clutch kit/throwout bearing for the 94 Wrangler and XJ...

 

WHAT is different! This is driving me crazy. d

[Abyx]

You don't have the fork retainer? Jeez man that's probably the problem! There's a spring clip that holds the shift fork on the Balljoint. I just took pictures of the set up in my trans ill post them up when I get access to a computer.

 

I'm putting a 93 Ax15 in an 87 MJ. There's a special pilot bearing set up. what do you mean you knocked it out with a hammer?

[Lowrange2]

You don't have the fork retainer? Jeez man that's probably the problem! There's a spring clip that holds the shift fork on the Balljoint. I just took pictures of the set up in my trans ill post them up when I get access to a computer.

 

I'm putting a 93 Ax15 in an 87 MJ. There's a special pilot bearing set up. what do you mean you knocked it out with a hammer?

The pilot bearing is in the fly wheel on the 2.5. Remove the fly wheel. And tap out the bearing.

 

No, I don't have the clip, didn't know there was one. But assuming the fork is in place its still not pushing far enough out.

 

Got a link to the clip?

[Abyx]

Ah I missed that part, fair enough. I'm in the middle of a swap on a 4.0, not a 2.5.

 

Honestly I didn't even know they made an external slave AX-5...I thought they were all internal slaves. However, are you positive that the slave and clutch unit are fully bled? I once had an instance where the push rod actually came out of the slave cylinder and I had to re-bleed the non bleed-able unit...you simply reverse bleed it by depressing the push rod until you stop getting air bubbles in the MC.

 

I'd consider trying that, but just be careful because I'm not sure if you're supposed to be able to do that or not..it's always worked for me; I've done it twice already.

 

Here are the pictures I told you I'd get you, these are from an AX-15 though... -

 

 

I'm not positive that you can buy that retaining clip from a parts store...do you have a Jeep shop nearby or a really good junkyard? Or are you good at fabricating stuff?

 

If the fork isn't properly situated on the ball-joint, then the fork won't push the throw out bearing with the proper amount of leverage, and it's entirely possible that the clutch wouldn't function correctly because of it. The entire system works on the proper amount of leverage.

[Lowrange2]

What is that that looks like a sleeve on the input shaft? All I have is a throw out bearing on mine. The throw out is not a snug fit on the shaft... I guess I'm missing something else.

 

I wonder if I can get the clip from the dealership.

 

I feel like a tard for not having these parts.

 

Ill hunt down an exploded diagram of all this stuff tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the help so far!

[Abyx]

Without grease its a little hard to get the bearing on that sleeve. It's a very exact fit. However that sleeve is integral to the transmission, as far as i know you can't remove it without disassembling the trans.

 

Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with, I may have some exploded diagrams laying around somewhere, ill see if I can dig them up for you.

[flint54]

Look closely at the first picture, and you will see that the "sleeve" is actually

a component bolted to the front of the transmission called a retainer. Held

by 8 or 9 bolts, it supports the front shaft and provides the surface for the

TOB to slide on.