Jeepman Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I could care less if you fry your wiring either... And Just because it is on the internet does not mean it is the correct information... I add my Info Because I am not a believer in blanketing everyone with one issue that someone has had with there vehicle... I personally don't give a dayem either if someone's headlight switch, plug, connector, or a wire fire occurs if they are clueless regarding total vehicle load under certain conditions. Our old trucks are all twenty or so years old, been rode hard, and corrosion and age have taken their toll causing additional total electrical load due to voltage drops. They were originally designed to handle a 25%-50% temporary overload conditions. When you add devices like dual/upgraded fans, upgraded headlamps, fog/driving lamps, power accessories, etc. etc. etc., total vehicle load increases. When total vehicle load increases, you need to increase the alternator size, and also increase the wire size to handle the increased amperage to the added devices to handle total load + at least 25% over. This definitely includes H4 headlamps. As a rule of thumb, I run any device that has a amp draw potential of at least 10A through a relay. I also increase the load side of the relay with heavier AWG gauge wiring. Running H4's through the standard 16AWG wiring and switch/connectors may be fine for awhile. But at night, when it's snowing and cold, and the heater blower, headlamps, driving lights, and extra fans are running flat out, sooner or later something's going to smoke at the weakest access to ground. If you're lucky, it may be only a switch or connector or even your alternator causing a temp failure until you replace it. If you're unlucky, it will be a short due to an insulation burn through somewhere on your rotten harness, igniting some gas/oil leak and flames will result. Maybe the associated circuit fuse or fusible link will blow first, maybe not. Anyone who gives advice that when adding any electrical component that has more amp draw the original electrical component it replaced and not taking steps to handle the additional system load is giving bad advice, and is clueless. :dunce: Oh, to the dunce (you know who you are), have you ever wondered why the cost cutting AMC electrical engineers used relays for the factory H2/H3/H4 fog lamps, but not for the OEM sealed beam headlamps? It's called conforming to the minimal electrical code standards in effect back in the day. Finally someone understands what I am talking about Age and abuse will take a toll But does not mean everyone’s jeeps has had the same abuse over the years SO Technically speaking not everyone will or does require a relay harness to combat voltage loss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I could care less if you fry your wiring either... And Just because it is on the internet does not mean it is the correct information... I add my Info Because I am not a believer in blanketing everyone with one issue that someone has had with there vehicle... I personally don't give a dayem either if someone's headlight switch, plug, connector, or a wire fire occurs if they are clueless regarding total vehicle load under certain conditions. Our old trucks are all twenty or so years old, been rode hard, and corrosion and age have taken their toll causing additional total electrical load due to voltage drops. They were originally designed to handle a 25%-50% temporary overload conditions. When you add devices like dual/upgraded fans, upgraded headlamps, fog/driving lamps, power accessories, etc. etc. etc., total vehicle load increases. When total vehicle load increases, you need to increase the alternator size, and also increase the wire size to handle the increased amperage to the added devices to handle total load + at least 25% over. This definitely includes H4 headlamps. As a rule of thumb, I run any device that has a amp draw potential of at least 10A through a relay. I also increase the load side of the relay with heavier AWG gauge wiring. Running H4's through the standard 16AWG wiring and switch/connectors may be fine for awhile. But at night, when it's snowing and cold, and the heater blower, headlamps, driving lights, and extra fans are running flat out, sooner or later something's going to smoke at the weakest access to ground. If you're lucky, it may be only a switch or connector or even your alternator causing a temp failure until you replace it. If you're unlucky, it will be a short due to an insulation burn through somewhere on your rotten harness, igniting some gas/oil leak and flames will result. Maybe the associated circuit fuse or fusible link will blow first, maybe not. Anyone who gives advice that when adding any electrical component that has more amp draw the original electrical component it replaced and not taking steps to handle the additional system load is giving bad advice, and is clueless. :dunce: Oh, to the dunce (you know who you are), have you ever wondered why the cost cutting AMC electrical engineers used relays for the factory H2/H3/H4 fog lamps, but not for the OEM sealed beam headlamps? It's called conforming to the minimal electrical code standards in effect back in the day. Finally someone understands what I am talking about Age and abuse will take a toll But does not mean everyone’s jeeps has had the same abuse over the years SO Technically speaking not everyone will or does require a relay harness to combat voltage loss... It was underdesigned when new!! It's not only the voltage loss which has been documented but the resistance in the stock circuit which is amp load. Big difference. Again, I will state that you have never installed a harness but many others of us have and seen the results. Read what has happened to many people's headlight switches and plugs with stock lamps. So, here we are 20 plus years down the road and they add higher amp drawing lights. All of a sudden their headlight switch is hot or the lights are blinking on and off. It's more irresponsible of you to discourage people from upgrading the harness having never used one that it is for those of us who have used the product to recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepman Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It was underdesigned when new!! It's not only the voltage loss which has been documented but the resistance in the stock circuit which is amp load. Big difference. Again, I will state that you have never installed a harness but many others of us have and seen the results. Read what has happened to many people's headlight switches and plugs with stock lamps. So, here we are 20 plus years down the road and they add higher amp drawing lights. All of a sudden their headlight switch is hot or the lights are blinking on and off. It's more irresponsible of you to discourage people from upgrading the harness having never used one that it is for those of us who have used the product to recommend it. The AMP's are not increasing so you make no sense... The Stock Sealed beam lamp is 55W Low beam = 4.5 AMPS Per lamp = 9 AMPS combined 65W high beam = 5.4 AMPS Per lamp = 10.8 AMPS combined An H4 is still a 55W low beam and a 65W high beam so it is NOT pulling more current unless you run Highe Wattage lamps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It was underdesigned when new!! It's not only the voltage loss which has been documented but the resistance in the stock circuit which is amp load. Big difference. Again, I will state that you have never installed a harness but many others of us have and seen the results. Read what has happened to many people's headlight switches and plugs with stock lamps. So, here we are 20 plus years down the road and they add higher amp drawing lights. All of a sudden their headlight switch is hot or the lights are blinking on and off. It's more irresponsible of you to discourage people from upgrading the harness having never used one that it is for those of us who have used the product to recommend it. The AMP's are not increasing so you make no sense... The Stock Sealed beam lamp is 55W Low beam = 4.5 AMPS Per lamp = 9 AMPS combined 65W high beam = 5.4 AMPS Per lamp = 10.8 AMPS combined An H4 is still a 55W low beam and a 65W high beam so it is NOT pulling more current unless you run Highe Wattage lamps... I will reiterate: Why are you discouraging people from using the harness on these old, underdesigned systems when the failure rate for plugs and switches is quite common, when you admit you have never used an upgraded harness? Have you ever witnessed first hand the improvement in lighting from stock bulbs with the harness alone? I have, as have many others. The harness was underengineered for the stock bulbs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepman Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I will reiterate: Why are you discouraging people from using the harness on these old, underdesigned systems when the failure rate for plugs and switches is quite common, when you admit you have never used an upgraded harness? Have you ever witnessed first hand the improvement in lighting from stock bulbs with the harness alone? I have, as have many others. The harness was underengineered for the stock bulbs!! I am not trying to discourage anyone Just to help with information... It matters not to me if you or anyone else has added a relay harness because you feel you needed it or you think you saw a difference... But I do not like when someone runs out and adds something to thier truck just because some guy on the internet said so... It is just a matter of the proof and your only telling me "cuz I did it and I saw a difference and go look at all the internet sites that say you should" is great for you but it is NOT A Proof... Where as I am sating to that same person test your truck to so if you need it... OH and I Have metered my Truck the last time I was involved in a discussion about H4 conversion here on CC and the voltage loss was so minimal I did not even write it down for future reference so I have done my due diligence and just think others should do the same before spending hard erned money which Is harder to come by for Many american and even some canadians these days... So to anyone who is thinking of such a swap just take a few minutes and test and see if in FACT your Truck has enough of a loss to require spending $30.00 or so on a relay kit that may not even be necessary FOR THEM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I will reiterate: Why are you discouraging people from using the harness on these old, underdesigned systems when the failure rate for plugs and switches is quite common, when you admit you have never used an upgraded harness? Have you ever witnessed first hand the improvement in lighting from stock bulbs with the harness alone? I have, as have many others. The harness was underengineered for the stock bulbs!! I am not trying to discourage anyone Just to help with information... It matters not to me if you or anyone else has added a relay harness because you feel you needed it or you think you saw a difference... But I do not like when someone runs out and adds something to thier truck just because some guy on the internet said so... It is just a matter of the proof and your only telling me "cuz I did it and I saw a difference and go look at all the internet sites that say you should" is great for you but it is NOT A Proof... Where as I am sating to that same person test your truck to so if you need it... OH and I Have metered my Truck the last time I was involved in a discussion about H4 conversion here on CC and the voltage loss was so minimal I did not even write it down for future reference so I have done my due diligence and just think others should do the same before spending hard erned money which Is harder to come by for Many american and even some canadians these days... So to anyone who is thinking of such a swap just take a few minutes and test and see if in FACT your Truck has enough of a loss to require spending $30.00 or so on a relay kit that may not even be necessary FOR THEM... Well, I'm not just anybody on the internet so please don't categorize me as such. I have experienced the results I've expressed as have many others. The fact that the headlamps are brighter and the harness costs little more than a headlamp switch, is easier to install and gives peace of mind that a headlight switch failure is not gonna leave you in the dark counts for something. Save your judgements for the guys touting magical spark plugs, throttle body spacers, electric superchargers and such. I really would like to see you install one of these harnesses and SEE the difference. Once again, we have someone who has not done something telling those of us who have, that what we did was fruitless when we know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepman Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Well, I'm not just anybody on the internet so please don't categorize me as such. I have experienced the results I've expressed as have many others. The fact that the headlamps are brighter and the harness costs little more than a headlamp switch, is easier to install and gives peace of mind that a headlight switch failure is not gonna leave you in the dark counts for something. Save your judgements for the guys touting magical spark plugs, throttle body spacers, electric superchargers and such. I really would like to see you install one of these harnesses and SEE the difference. Once again, we have someone who has not done something telling those of us who have, that what we did was fruitless when we know better. But you are just anybody on the net and I did not say it was fruitless for YOU to do what YOU felt you needed to do You are not understanding what I have writen and please stop taking offence as if the world here rides on your shoulders... I would gladly install one when I see fit No sooner and no later because I do not install things just cuz someone says so without verifying I need to... Is it cheap insurance sure is and I will say it again "if someone feels they need to do it then I would say do it... My point now is no different then before, Not every jeep will require a relay harness upgrade for every aplication... I have no idea who you are or what you know but no matter who you are or who I am proof is in the pudding so to speak... The next chance I get to do another meter reading on my Jeep or any other one that roles thru my Shop I will test it to see what the Real world numbers are for it BUT that will still only conclude that that Jeep and ONLY that Jeep will or will not require an upgrade it by no means says that ALL Jeeps MUST have the upgrade... This has been an interesting debate and I do apologize if you did not understand my point as well as if I offended you and in any way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComancheDude11 Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 So, if some were to get that harness, how hard would it be to install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 So, if some were to get that harness, how hard would it be to install. On a 1-5 degree of difficulty with 1 = easy, I'd rate it a 1. It's plug-in and play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiser54 Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 So, if some were to get that harness, how hard would it be to install. Cruiser’s Headlight Upgrade Harness Instructions Absolutely plug and play. Remove grille and headlamp bulbs. I fed my harnesses from the passenger side starting between the battery and the back of the headlamp housing, over to the driver side. Plug the driver side bulb into the new harness. Attach the new harness's ground wire under one of the small bolts on the radiator support after scraping the paint off under it. Attach the harness to the existing harness behind the grille working toward the passenger side. . Plug the new harness plug into passenger headlamp. Plug original headlamp plug into receptacle on new harness. Attach the ground for the passenger side just like you did the driver side under a radiator support bolt. Attach relays with provided bracket on the passenger side inner fender. Connect power wires to battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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