Hello all

[zagscrawler]

New to the site and would love some advice. Ive got an 88 MJ 2x4 and with to convert it to 4x4. Ive got a rear dana 60 from a one ton ford and also front and rear dana 44's from 88 jeep grand wagoneer. Not sure on the best combo between these or if i should look for some other axles. I am well versed in fabricating and have access to a full machine shop as well if that helps. I think i can also get my hands on a manual 5 speed with transcase out of a (86-90 not real sure :???: ) cherokee if i need to swap out the trans as well. Thanks in advance for the help. Forgot to mention that i would probably be running 35 but don't want to be scared to jump to 37 if i decide later.

[Incommando]

Welcome aboard.

 

If your manual tranny is a Peugot it is a universally hated unit that I don't think anyone would recommend that you swap in.

 

The rear D60 is great, but the width and lug pattern would not match your possible Waggy D44 front. You can swap the D44 to 8 lug using readily available 3/4-ton Chevy stuff and spacers to match the width. D44/D44 combo might be easier but would probably require both to be regeared as the driver's drop waggy years featured truly sucktastic gear ratios. With 35-37's you probably intended on regearing anyway, though.

[zagscrawler]

Ya i do intend to regear the diffs and still need to do some homework before i decide on the ratio's. I can get both front and rear d44's for around 300 bucks and only the rear d60 for 300 bucks.. do those prices sound fair? Thanks for bringing the miss matched hubs to my attention. I think i would rather just swap in the d44s as long as they will hold up ok to at least 35s and minor engine upgrades, still needs to pass emissions down here. Plus ive seen comments about the 44s having more clearance at the pumpkin such. I don't plan on doing any kind of crazy competing but there are some knarly trails near hear and don't want to be snaping stuff all day you know :D A couple of my buddies have cherokees and was wondering how much of the lift kit and suspension mods from there trucks i can copy for my MJ. Thanks for all the help so far and to come. Oh and also how do i know if i have the short wheel base or the long? Ive not seen to many of these around here to compare. And ill also look into the trans type. Any call letters or stampings i can read on it to tell which it is?

[tbrand]

If the gas filler door is centered between the cab and rear wheel well, it's a short bed. If not, it's a long bed.

 

Cherokee lifts - I believe all the front pieces will work. Rears are different.

 

Trans...

 

AX-15 on the left, Pukey on the right.

[zagscrawler]

Thanks for the clues on the wheel base. I love your avatar. That is the exact jeep i own lol pin stripes and all, tho i plan on ditching them sooner or later. I imagine the rear won't be as big a pain to figure out as the front as far as lift goes. All i really have to base any knowlage on are my buds cherokees and ive got a strange ? for yall. Are the MJ's narrower in the cockpit than Cherokees? i don't seem to have the room or at least it feels like I'm closer to the passanger in this thing. One last noob question for the night.. i think.

I might be wrong but sure looks like my MJ has a longer wheelbase then my friends cherokee's, if I'm right are there any real advantages to that or is it more of a disadvantage, like high centering and such? Basicaly will i be at a handycap trying to play fallow the leader?

[Garvin]

Both the short bed and long bed have a good amount of wheel base on the Cherokee. The Cherokee is 102.5" while the short bed is 113" and the long bed is 119.6". It all matters what in all you want to do but I prefer the longer wheel base (I've actually stretched the front a little and going to stretch the rear a few inches).

 

For the axles, the Dana 44's are alright, would take a lot of money to make them indestructible. The Waggy front axle is a low pinion. Besides not having the hub bearings, the Dana 44LP isn't all that much stronger than the Dana 30HP. I'm throwing in a set of Dana 60HP kingpin and Sterling 10.25 axles under my Jeep. You can shave down the Dana 60HP some and there is a Dana 70U out there that has a smooth bottom already (about 1" shaved off the bottom already from the factory). If you choose to keep the Dana 60 rear, you will want to shave down the bottom some and will want to beef atleast the axle shafts up some (especially if it's a semi-float axle).

 

As for the interior, they are essentially the same width. You do have an extra 1/2" or so of headroom in a Comanche vs a Cherokee due to how the roof curves. The seats in the Comanche don't go back as far as the ones in a Cherokee, though.

 

And for the lifts, the only difference in the fronts is the cross member (assuming you go long arm). The difference is that Comanches have two extra brackets welded to the inside frame rail so you now have 4 bolts per side on the factory cross member vs the 2 bolts that the Cherokee has. The rears are completely different as the Comanche is SUA while the Cherokee is SOA. Doing a simple SOA on the Comanche will net you approximately 5.5" of lift. You can also get away with that size of life (and another few inches) without a SYE in the Comanche due to the wheel base and drive shaft being long, vs having to put a transfer case drop or SYE in a Cherokee with 4.5"+ of lift.

 

Hope that helps answer a few of the questions.

[zagscrawler]

Sure does Garvin. Thanks man. This is the kind of feedback i need right now. My wife wants a boat more than she wants me to have a jeep so this has to be right the first time, specially since I'm trying to finance both atm. To be honest with ya ive been on trail with my buddy in his dana 35 having cherokee with 35's and cromo shafts and had such a blast. I'm kinda gauging everything off this. wait i lied he has a chrystler 8.75 in the rear i think, but he has had breaks and he swears he will go anywhere that the rigs with 37's will go. He may be a little full of shyte but i had fun let me tell ya. So i know its real hard to guage what i expect out of this bad boy but i hope to be able to fallow him and maybe some of the harder hitters to be honest. not sure if this bit of info helps you help me but thats kinda my direction for now. So as a general opinion i should find a way to use the dana 60 in the rear since its available ( still wondering on price tho) and beef up the d44 front to match hub and lug? or is the low pinion a breaker in the front if i want to put close to 7" of lift in it? Again I'm sorry if I'm beating something that has been beaten before but I'm drooling for more info.

[Garvin]

I can give you a bit of experience from my old Cherokee. That Jeep had an 8" long arm lift, 36x13.5R15 Super Swamper IROKs, Dana 44 rear and Dana 30HP front. The Dana 30's weren't lasting too long but I had a custom Dana 44HP in the works and still broke stuff in the Dana 44 rear with Superior axle shafts. I'll admit that I'm a bit rough on my rigs but I've seen a lot of people that swear against Dana 44 fronts as the u-joints are weak.

 

A lot of the driving is due to skill and not the rig. I had a buddy on bald 33" A/T's and open front and rear that was somehow able to keep up with me when I had an OX in the rear, I swear he would float...And then I would get through stuff full size trucks on 44" Boggers would get stuck in.

 

The 29 spline Chrysler 8.25 is arguably about as strong as a Ford 8.8 and Dana 44 if you wanted to keep with smaller axles, but not sure how long those would handle to 37's. If you plan on going everywhere and only building it once, you might as well start with the one tons. Something I just thought of...Find out if that axle is a big bearing or small bearing axle. If it is the smaller bearing then you're better off just passing it up. Check around for a 14 bolt rear axle if you want a ton of strength for a small amount of cash. When I was looking for one, I found a new axle, full floater, 4.56 gears and a detroit for $850, all it needed was disc brakes and it would be set.

[zagscrawler]

Got some more ? for you guys :D One of my buds has a 4.0L H.O. i can get for real cheap and also an AX 15 trans w/transcase. So my questions are will i have any probs slaping the HO in my non-ho chassis, at least i can't find anything that states i allready have an HO. Also is there any must have mods that i need to do to the trans before the swap, and i do have the 2x4 pukey trans in it now. Oh and by the way I have desided against trying to fit 37's on this sucker and think i am going to be fine with 35s while i learn how to drive. Oh ya and still have plans on sticking with the d44's front and rear axles. Thanks Zag

[Garvin]

'88 is non-HO. The HO started in '91 when the Chrysler fuel system replaced the Renix system.

 

As for the engine, keep your intake and exhaust manifolds, as well as all the engine will swap right in. You just need to keep your sensors since they changed the whole wiring when it was swapped to an HO. The AX15 is pretty bulletproof, especially behind a stock 4.0L. The best thing you could do to it is to make it an external slave cylinder (assuming it isn't already). That just requires getting a bellhousing from a '94+ AX15. You will also want to get the clutch master cylinder, clutch slave cylinder and the line between them to make the swap even easier.

 

If you do stick with the 44's, make sure you get good quality ball joints and axle u-joints (CTM if you can afford or Spicer if you can't). I've see a ton of ball joints and u-joints break on them running anywhere form 33-37" tires.

 

Your best bet on learning how to drive is to go wheeling stock for a little while (even with a 4x2). This will give you a lot of experience and get to know your rig a lot better. When you swap to 4x4, take it easy and try to conquer the challenges without the use of the skinny pedal. I've seen way too many people think that the skinny pedal is the end all solution and they're always the first one to break stuff.

[zagscrawler]

Some new news on my build. So the guy i was going to get the d44's from sold the whole truck instead of parting it out.... total bumber but i still have access to the rear d60. My new questions are as fallows. Is there a way i can identify the rear d60 to tell whether its a large or small brng version? Also if its full float or semi float axle, something like flanges holding bearings inside of outer axle tube? It came out of a 2003 ford e-350 van. Also is there a good source for finding a matching front axle? High pinion would be best if I'm reading all this stuff right. Oh one more. What are your opinions on the Richmond locker, Lockright or surelock, i can't remember the name now lol. Thanks

 

Zag

[Garvin]

I can't help you too much on the big/small bearing (doesn't really matter too much if it's a full floater) but you are really limiting yourself if you buy that D60 since it is the metric bolt pattern. If you want to find a matching front axle, you will need to find one from a 2000+ Ford. If you go for the matching ones then you will be getting a ball joint front axle. My dads 2001 F250 Super Duty (plow package, tow package, off-road package and super duty package) has a Dana 50 HP up front, I believe the F350's and heavier have the Dana 60 HP up front.

 

Since the axle is from an E350, I'm going to assume that it's a full floater. The real easy way to tell if it's a semi-float or full float is to take the hub cab off and look down the middle of the rim. If you see a cylindrical piece that sticks out with 8 bolts on the very outside then it's a full float, if not then it's a semi-float.

 

For lockers, are you just looking for a pocket locker or a full locker? I'm planning on putting an ARB in the front Dana 60HP I have but there is a huge selection of lockers out there for the Dana 60 (especially a rear one). Spartan makes a nice pocket locker for the Dana 60, think Lockright does also.

[zagscrawler]

I'm not sure i know the diff between "pocket and full locker". I don't need any manual engagement levers or anything just a good locked up rear when i have some torque aplied. NO LIMITED SLIP PLS. So that rear d60 is a bit to new? with the metric pattern and all? so has to be matched up with a later model front that uses ball joints instead of a kingpin? am i understanding that right? if so are the rest of the parts on this e-350 rear strong as the older ones? sorry for so many questions but i don't want to assume anything.

[Garvin]

Pocket lockers are lockers that just replace the spiders, basically just the innerds of the carrier. A full locker could be a spool, detroit, air locker or cable locker, it's basically a locker that replaces the carrier. The pocket lockers (sometimes called lunchbox lockers) are much cheaper (usually around $250) while the full lockers start around $400 (if not a bit more). I wasn't taking limited slip into account at all since, if you're going one tons, you really mean business so a real locker is the way to go.

 

The rears are just as strong it's just a different bolt pattern that only matches the newer Fords. It will only match the newer ball joint style as the kingpins stopped in mid '91 in the Ford axles. If you wanted the older 8x6.5 bolt pattern, you can get a 14 bolt rear and Dana 60 HP front (Chevy, Ford, and Dodge all used the same bolt pattern up to '00 when Ford changed to a metric pattern). I'm going to be going with a Dana 60 HP kingpin front with a Sterling 10.25 rear just because that's what I got (many more reasons also but that was the reason I really started looking into them). If I could have found a 14 bolt as wide as I want then I would be going that route.

 

Something you really want to take into account when you go full widths is to get matching (or really close) widths unless you want to cut one down and worry about custom shafts. Your best bet would be to do some research and figure out the setup that you want to run then wait for a deal to pop up on those.

[zagscrawler]

Well I'm way to excided about hitting the rocks to wait for a good deal on big axles, specially with my limited funds at the moment. Ive found a local deal on d30 and d35 out of a 97 tj and was wondering besides adding pirches to the rear are there any disadvantages to running these instead of an older model cherokee? I also wonder if its infact a chrystler 8.25 in the rear and he doesn't know it. Any ideas? oh and any clue on where to order some new spring perches on the net. Thanks folks

[Geonovast]

TJs didn't get an 8.25.

 

D30 will be a Low Pinion.

 

Spring perches can be had from the dealer.

 

Were you still looking to swap that HO into your truck?

[zagscrawler]

eventually yes i do plan on swaping to HO but my buddy with it has to dig it out of a friends backyard to make sure its still chillin where he left it, wish me luck lol. Are you sure about the low pinion? Ive heard otherwise, might be complete garbage info but want to be sure. Plus its 200 bucks for both axles and really want to get this bad boy rollin in four wheel soon. But otherwise are the axles the same as far as strength compared to the earlier models? Oh and i have been considering just doing a spring over on my stock d35 in the rear and throwing a pocket locker in for now till i find better axles. What do you think a d30 hp front would run if i found one locally and where would be the place to look for a hp front?

[shelbyluvv]

The D30 will be a low pinion. It will make getting a good pinion angle a PIA. The rear is either a D35 or a D44. Not likely someone would swap out a good D44. If the TJ was a 4.0, 5 speed it probably has 3:07 gears. Which will suck with any tires bigger than a 31s.

 

I get my spring perches from either the dealer or Summit Racing.

[zagscrawler]

very good. thanks for the confermation and the info on perch sources. Any ideas on where to find a d30 hp or should i just say screw it and go with it for now till better axles show up? is there a max lift i can run with a dana 30 low pinion as far as pinion angle? Oh and you are correct on the app of the axles....4L 5spd.

[zagscrawler]

got an other ? for yall. anyone know what kind of axles come in an 80 jeep wagoneer? one on craiglist locally right now . Add says v6 360 4x4 but must be a typo?

[Geonovast]

I only ask about the HO swap because of one not-so-little thing. Yes, you can run an HO 4.0 in a Renix truck by keeping all the renix accessories and sensors. However, you keep a Renix flywheel. The Renix systems WILL NOT work with a HO flywheel. Splicing wires and putting in a HO CPS WILL NOT make it work.