sugar in the tank???

[brian]

Here's a good one. I know someone here can figure this out.

My 89 comanche 4x4 six died while going around a small up hill corner. Died like it was out of gas.

When I tried to start it the starter just made a squealling noise. This is a new (month old )starter and I have had no trouble with it prior to this.

So I tried to push start it and it did start up but when I turned around and headed uphill it died again. I figured it must be out of gas and since my gauge is messed up I put 2 fresh gallons of gas in and push started it again. It fired up like normal and I drove 7 miles up and down hills to my house but... when I turned into my driveway (a slight incline) It died again and when I push started it it barely ran..mis-fired... popped... chugged and finaly would not run at all.

 

Here's my question:

I think it must be the fuel filter and I am changing that but what are the chances that the fuel filter went bad at the same moment my starter went bad??I bench tested the starter and it spins and the gear goes into position like normal. No missing teeth on my flywheel.

 

I am also wondering if rather than a bad fuel filter maybe a vandal put something in my tank..sugar, piss..etc.

the window had been vandalized that day by an angry surfer (another long story) just prior to the engine trouble.

Is it possible that the coughing, chugging, backfiring would cause the engine to be so stiff or hard to crank that the elec. starter could not turn it but pushing the truck and popping the clutch would turn it?

 

I'm so confused!! :dunno:

[beepbeepmyredjeep]

I've never personally performed any malicious pranks, but I did grow up with some damn vicious guys.

 

Sounds to me like either sugar or marbles in your gas tank.

 

 

Marbles is a good one, because it causes an intermittent problem you just can't figure out...your vehicle will just randomly die when a marble clogs the fuel line....but when the suction stops, the marble sometimes moves out of the way so you can start it again.

http://gwally.com/pranks/archives/000699.php

 

Sugar won't actually ruin an engine, contrary to popular belief....But will cause damage.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/sugar.asp

[beepbeepmyredjeep]

Oh, and the less malicious answer...Murphy's Law. You had multiple components fail at the same time.

[pilotblake]

My cherokee got sugar in the tank in college along with 4 other vehicles right next to it. It eventually fouled up the fuel pump. That was several years ago now, and granted the jeep is now retired to the farm to live out the rest of its days as a run around vehicle, the sugar did no noticeable damage. I don't understand the marble scenario. Would a floating pickup and screen suck up a marble?

[jimoshel]

I'll take a marble or sugar to a grenade anytime. One of the favorite tricks of the VC was to wrap a rubber band around a grenade, pull the pin and drop it in a gas tank. The gas dissolves the rubber and BOOM. The marbles usually just caused a strange noise, drive the driver crazy trying to figure where it was coming from. The sugar can be anything from mild, clogging the fuel pump to totally wiping out an engine. Depends on the how the motor was being worked as the sugar dissolved. Slow speed it just clogged the fuel pump, fuel filters, carb jets to burning the pistons out of the motor if the car was doing highway speeds or lugging. Sugar gets hotter than a son um gun when it burns.

[brian]

I still don't know if it was a prank. I can see nothing in the gas...no crystals... no dirt... no water.

So I might have been right with my original diagnosis of a bad fuel filter. Seems to me I recall my last bad filter would stall the engine or make it cough and sputter when turning and/or climbing hills.

Trouble is...I am having a hard time believing that my new ,month old starter went bad at the same moment the filter clogged.

 

I've never had a starter sound like it is turning but not engage the flywheel. Ususally they either just click or don't make any sound??

Anyone know why a starter would run but not engage the flywheel suddenly. Flywheel is not missing any teeth.

 

Marbles would have a hard time plugging the filter on the end of the fuel pump. It's cigar shaped.

What's next?

[Automan2164]

Replace the starter. If its as new as you say it is, it should have a warranty.

 

Rob L.

[jimoshel]

Elaborate a point. Over the years there have been several types of arrangements on the gas tanks for gas line outlet. The early ones were flat across the bottom with the fuel outlet flush or slightly raised above the bottom. Any junk in the tank went straight to the fuel pump, where applicable. Some of the early tanks were elevated and fed the carb by gravity. Then they started dimpling the bottom, like a small saucer, with the line sticking above about a 1/2in and in the middle of the depression, the idea being sediment would gather in the depression. Somewhere along the line they started putting glass bulbs in either the fuel line and , or built into the fuel pump. Called sediment bowls. They were improved upon by putting ceramic filters in them. About this time they also started building filters into the carb at the gas point of entry. Then came the filter in the tank. Then with FI and the pump in the tank came the filter sock. The marble trick worked pretty good, kinda, with the early systems but created nothing but noise on the later ones. :smart:

FOR SALE, Slightly used fuel pump for 1923 Stanley Steamer. Same shape but slightly smaller than the ones used on steam locomotives.

[brian]

I'm still waiting for a new starter to arrive. The company I bought the last one from is sending another free of charge. I guess I'll install it and if it cranks the engine I'll see if the new fuel filter did the trick. :dunno:

[gl1200aman]

Just to give you the answer to the starter question. When the starter spins the bendix or starter gear moves outward to engage the flywheel. If the starter does not spin fast enough it may not move outward or the bendix could have broke. New or rebuilt starters can last a long time or die quick.

[brian]

Here's the answer to my puzzle

I got another new starter shipped to me. couldn't quite get it to fit into the mounting hole. So I got to looking around and discovered the upper mounting bolts that hold the bell housing to the engine were Gone!! the two lower bolts were still there and tight but the metal plate between the engine and bell housing had shifted slightly from the torgue of the engine. So, the old starter had been moved so close to the flywheel that the bendix gear couldn't engage.That's why I could hear the starter spinning but not engaging the flywheel. The other result of the bell housing being slightly out of alignment was the sensor mounted at the top of the housing was now misreading the flywheel position..that's why the engine died. I had originally thought the engine died due to a bad fuel filter or contaminated gas and that the starter went bad co-incidentaly at the same time. But I knew the odds of that happening were long.

So.. mystery solved....engine died and stater would not turn engine over all at the same time. I wonder who the bonehead was who didn't tighten the bolts when the tranny was installed last time....oh wait ..that would be me! :doh:

 

Anyway it runs real nice again but now I have an extra starter. :dunce:

[mythreesons]

Were those top two the infamous torx bolts? If so, I bet you meant to replace them with something normal and just forgot. I hear those torx are the "cat's meow" for finding a personal frustration point before "boil over". Just ask Geonovast about them. :D :D

 

Glad you found the root cause before things got real serious.

[brian]

No.. just regular bolts. I can't believe I didn't tighten them but maybe it was a brain infarction. I've done some stupid things before.

I'll be keeping an eye on them for a while.just in case...