Using XJ leaf pack/AALs to supplement MJ stock pack to lift?

[phenryiv1]

See last post for an update and some revised questions!

 

My head has been spinning as I have researched an inexpensive all-spring lift. I selected my goal height to be about 1.5-2" F&R.

 

I used this XJ How-to as a general guide:

http://www.rocklizardfabrications.com/h ... _boost.htm

 

For the fronts, I went with ZJ V8 coils, with the option of adding another 5/8" from a second set of coil isolators (okay, so technically NOT all-spring!).

 

For the rear, I ordered a set of 2" Motion OffRoad AALs, which they said should give me between 1-1.5" on the rear, most likely. (2" was for an XJ.)

 

As I researched it and shot the breeze with my boss, he decided to put more air under his 2000 XJ. Being my boss and all, he has more money, plus his XJ is driven 2-3 times a week for his daily 65-mile commute, while my MJ will rarely leave my town. That being the case, he is going with a full replacement pack (stock) with an additional leaf, or with a 2.5" pack such as this one:

http://www.rocklizardfabrications.com/l ... t_kits.htm

 

(The $399 kit.)

 

At any rate, he will be trashing his ~100K stock pack, meaning I can have if for the bargain price of "free." With my existing stock pack, My MJ sits like this:

 

 

My springs still have pretty good arch for a 20 year-old truck:

 

 

So my question is, if I use his stock leaf and cut off the eyes (and place it in my pack accordingly), will I gain anything over the MOR AAL? Should I use that instead of the AAL? Should I use both?

 

Note: The word "cherokee" is too common to use in a search. I tried.

[Eagle]

I have been considering using XJ main leaves to convert standard MJ springs to Metric Tonne springs. I think you'll get more carrying capacity but very little lift. Here's why:

 

A lot of us in NAXJA have used cut-off XJ main leaves as AALs in XJs. The result is typically about 1-1/2" of gross lift. I did it on an '88 and got a gross lift (measured before and after) of 1-1/4". But the rear had sagged 1/2" before the lift, so I netted a grand total of 3/4" higher than "stock," or about the same as a later model Up Country suspension would have provided from the factory. (It rode very well, by the way.)

 

But the XJ is spring-over-axle, with the springs almost flat when installed in the vehicle. The MJ is spring-under, and the springs are arched when installed. If you hold those XJ main leaves up against the MJ springs in the vehicle, I think you'll find that the free arch of the XJ leaf is close to the installed/loaded arch of the MJ springs. Which means sticking the extra leaf in there won't add much (if any) height, because it won't be deflecting and taking any load. Once you start adding load in the box, though, the XJ leaf will start to deflect, and at that point it starts adding some carrying capacity.

[phenryiv1]

I have been considering using XJ main leaves to convert standard MJ springs to Metric Tonne springs. I think you'll get more carrying capacity but very little lift. Here's why:

 

A lot of us in NAXJA have used cut-off XJ main leaves as AALs in XJs. The result is typically about 1-1/2" of gross lift. I did it on an '88 and got a gross lift (measured before and after) of 1-1/4". But the rear had sagged 1/2" before the lift, so I netted a grand total of 3/4" higher than "stock," or about the same as a later model Up Country suspension would have provided from the factory. (It rode very well, by the way.)

 

But the XJ is spring-over-axle, with the springs almost flat when installed in the vehicle. The MJ is spring-under, and the springs are arched when installed. If you hold those XJ main leaves up against the MJ springs in the vehicle, I think you'll find that the free arch of the XJ leaf is close to the installed/loaded arch of the MJ springs. Which means sticking the extra leaf in there won't add much (if any) height, because it won't be deflecting and taking any load. Once you start adding load in the box, though, the XJ leaf will start to deflect, and at that point it starts adding some carrying capacity.

Great info, and a really good explaination of the situation.

 

So is the take-home message that I should stick with the AAL and don't worry with the extra Cherokee leaf?

[Eagle]

So is the take-home message that I should stick with the AAL and don't worry with the extra Cherokee leaf?

Dunno. It depends on what you hope to accomplish. I don't think it will generate much lift, but I am not certain because I haven't done mine yet. If lift is your goal, I think a good, full-length AAL or a pair of cut-off MJ or Dakota main leaves will be more appropriate. If you want to increase the capacity, the XJ leaves would seem to be a good choice.

 

Keep in mind that if you get your boss's XJ springs, you're not limited to using just the main leaves. You could also add in the second leaf to get some more lift. I remember one of the guys in NAXJA from California was running something like 9-leaf springs in his trail XJ, and he said it flexed great. Many years ago, I bought an old Hudson pickup (most of you never even heard of Hudson) that must have had about 12 leaves in the rear springs -- and they seemed to be factory. I had three Hudson POs, and the springs on that one were twice as thick as the other two.

 

Who has used MJ main leaves for AALs, and how much lift did they produce?

[phenryiv1]

So is the take-home message that I should stick with the AAL and don't worry with the extra Cherokee leaf?

Dunno. It depends on what you hope to accomplish. I don't think it will generate much lift, but I am not certain because I haven't done mine yet. If lift is your goal, I think a good, full-length AAL or a pair of cut-off MJ or Dakota main leaves will be more appropriate. If you want to increase the capacity, the XJ leaves would seem to be a good choice.

 

Keep in mind that if you get your boss's XJ springs, you're not limited to using just the main leaves. You could also add in the second leaf to get some more lift. I remember one of the guys in NAXJA from California was running something like 9-leaf springs in his trail XJ, and he said it flexed great.

Well, at some point my lift in the rear will outpace my front, which will be in the 1-2" range. Going any higher and I get into shock problems, as I already bought my shocks and would have to go through a huge process to return them, figure out the proper replacements, etc.

 

In the end, I want to fit 30s (they fit at stock height) and just give me a little more height than stock. I really like the look of comanchekid's blue MJ, which I think runs the MOR budget boost at 1.5". That is high enough to not look stock without getting into any major drivetrain issues. I just want to do the same with flexible parts, as much as possible, and I want to keep it reasonable. For my springs ($40 shipped for ZJ coils; $40 shipped for the MOR AALs) and my shocks ($100 shipped for 4 Monroe shocks: ZJ UpCountry fronts and Toyota T100 SR5 rears), plus my bushings, Ubolts, clamps, etc., I will have about $250 in a 1.5-2" lift that is all flex and no hardparts, plus lifetime warranty on my shocks.

 

Really, the only reason that I am lifting at all is because my shocks are TOAST and I need to replace them, and I figure if the cost is the same for stock height or taller shocks, I might as well get the longer ones and move up an inch or so.

 

Also, now that you mentioned the XJ leafs should be close to flat under load, my boss may not replace his packs. He might just add an additional XJ main leaf or the MOR AAL (which he already has) and run his set of ZJ V8 springs in the front. That is good for him but bad for me, I suppose.

[Eagle]

If I have succesfully sabotaged your freebie spring acquisition (sorry!), you can achieve what you want with a Rancho AAL kit. It's Rancho part number RS60913. (Note: The footnote in the Rancho catalog says it is not recommended for Cherokees or Comanches with 3-leaf springs. It doesn't say why not, and I don't see any reason not to use it.) The last time I bought one of those sets, it cost $50. It may be closer to $65 by now.

[phenryiv1]

If I have succesfully sabotaged your freebie spring acquisition (sorry!), you can achieve what you want with a Rancho AAL kit. It's Rancho part number RS60913. (Note: The footnote in the Rancho catalog says it is not recommended for Cherokees or Comanches with 3-leaf springs. It doesn't say why not, and I don't see any reason not to use it.) The last time I bought one of those sets, it cost $50. It may be closer to $65 by now.

No, he is still doing a full replacement pack, so I still have the option of taking his. :cheers: I have a 4-leaf pack, so I should be fine with the Rancho part.

 

However, I may end up doing the long AAL in the rear. The MOR one is only about 20" in length. I need to compare the curvature, but if it is not going to hold up, I may sell it and go with an S10 or dakota main leaf, or I might do the long AAL. Edit: Holy crap- the best price I could find on those AALs was $82! (end Edit)

 

After talking to Marty from Rock Lizard (the guy who wrote that how-to) on Friday, I ordered new springs that he says gave a consistant 2" on XJs. It is a MOOG progressive spring (Part # cc784) and they only ran my $77. I will just sell my ZJ V8 springs. I might sell them on an XJ forum with the AALs as a package.

 

On a positive note, I got my shocks installed yesterday. Now I just need the lift to match!

[johnnyc]

I added XJ main leafs wth the eyes cut off to my MJ packs and got two inches of lift. Enough to clear 245/70/16 MTRs ( a little less than 30").

[phenryiv1]

I am bumping this old(er) thread instead of making a new thread.

 

I now have (almost) all of my parts together. My fear is that I could accidentally add too much lift and end up with my 30" tires looking too small under the truck. I don't have the $$$ to go to 31"s, as much as I would like to do that.

 

First the easy part: I have the MOOG springs, which I found out were actually the coils designed for the front of an Up-Country V8 ZJ. As I mentioned above, they supposedly net around 2" on the front of a 4.0L XJ or MJ. I will be replacing the stock coils spacers, since they are 21 years old. If I need to even out the height, I can always go with spacers in the front to compensate for any unanticipated lift in the rear, which takes us to the hard part...

 

In the rear, I have the stock 4-leaf pack, which has not suffered any sagging, as far as I can tell. It also has some sort of helper or overload leaf installed. To lift, I have my MOR 20" XJ AAL (should be good for about 1" on an MJ, according to MOR) and a full (~110K all-highway) 2001 XJ stock pack, with the eyes already removed. So the question is, what do I actually use to get my lift? I don't want to be yanking this thing apart 4-5 times to tweak the lift in the rear to get it just right. What I want is about 2" in the rear, then I will try the MOOGs up front and see how level things are. But what leaf(s) do I use in the rear to start with?

 

I still need to grab some spring clips and U-bolts, so I have another couple of weeks to mull this over, but should I start with the XJ mains? XJ secondaries? Use the MOR AALs? Use a combination? The post above indicates that I could get 2" from the XJ mains alone, but all of that varies with the use and wear on the MJ and the donor XJ.

 

:dunno: I am new to all of this lifting stuff, though I have lowered many pavement-pounding import sedans.

 

TIA

[Eagle]

Start with one AAL -- whatever one is the longest. If the MOR is the longest single leaf, start with that. If the cut-off XJ main leaf is the longest, start with that.

[WahooSteeler]

Sounds to me like you're overthinking it a bit. I've always heard the most negative effects of AAL'S is the ride quality and a short lifespan, and that IF you go AAL to go with a full length one to overcome those common complaints. I've also heard, and seemed to be confirmed by johnnyc, that using an xj main leaf (assuming you couldn't get an MJ main leaf as a first choice) would give 1-2" depending on condition of the spring. Plus, the ride is apparently 100%+ better. It had been mentioned before about just using lift shackles on the rear and I still think that's a reasonable consideration. A pair of Chevy drop shackles cost the same as your MOR AALs and they have two mounting heights providing @1" or 2" of lift. With that, IMO that gives you the flexibility you need on fine tuning your lift height in relation to what the XJ or MJ main leaf gives you w/out having to mess with all the work on the spring packs over and over.

 

*Edit, had to leave while typing this and just came back afte Eagle's last post, sooooooo :agree:

[Eagle]

Using an XJ main leaf with the eyes cut off typically adds 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" in an XJ. Given that an MJ has a lot more arch to the springs, I seriously doubt that using XJ main leaves could possibly generate 2" of lift in an MJ. Maybe 1" -- but IMHO I plan to do that in order to do an el cheapo, faux Metric Ton conversion, and I'm not expecting any lift at all. I expect to get about the same ride height, with more load capacity.

[mvusse]

Also, XJs are soa, so the thickness of the leaf itself adds to the lift. Comanches are sua, so the thickness of the leaf does nothing.

[phenryiv1]

Leaf length goes like this (longest to shortest):

 

XJ Main

XJ 2nd

MOR AAR

XJ 3rd

XJ 4th

[phenryiv1]

So I am considering adding the XJ main leaf first, then seeing where it settles in. If I want more, then I can add the shackle lift later.

 

I hate posting eBay links, btu I want to be sure that I am watching the correct shackles. I am looking for the 88+ 1500 Chevy/GMC drop shackles, correct?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-INCH-L ... 240%3A1318

[WahooSteeler]

yes those will work

[mvusse]

XJ leafs are almost flat. MJ leafs are curved. Adding an XJ main leaf may or may not give your spring packs a higher load rating, but probably won't give it any significant amount of lift, if any at all.

 

You'd be better off adding leafs from a pack with about the same curve, like another MJ, or possibly an Exploder.

[phenryiv1]

So I am considering adding the XJ main leaf first, then seeing where it settles in. If I want more, then I can add the shackle lift later.

 

I hate posting eBay links, btu I want to be sure that I am watching the correct shackles. I am looking for the 88+ 1500 Chevy/GMC drop shackles, correct?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-INCH-L ... 240%3A1318

So I went and looked at a set of shackles that the sel right off of the shelf at AutoZone. They are made by Superior, and are listed for a variety of 1/2 ton pickups, including the chevy 1500 series trucks When I measred the width of the shackles, they are 3" wide, whereas our leaves are 2/5" wide.

 

Since every search on here has seemed to indicate that the shackles for 1500 series trucks are the ones to get, I think that there is either some bad info or some people are having to spread the frame attachement point at the upper end of the shackle.

 

Any insight from the experts?

[HOrnbrod]

Since every search on here has seemed to indicate that the shackles for 1500 series trucks are the ones to get, I think that there is either some bad info or some people are having to spread the frame attachement point at the upper end of the shackle.

 

Any insight from the experts?

 

Yes, the Chebby/GMC truck shackles are wider. Most just squeeze them on tight with the bolt. I had a set for awhile, didn't like how they fit, and purchased a set of TeraFlex lift shackles for an XJ. Much better.

[Eagle]

XJ leafs are almost flat. MJ leafs are curved. Adding an XJ main leaf may or may not give your spring packs a higher load rating, but probably won't give it any significant amount of lift, if any at all.

There is no "may" about it. Adding another leaf WILL give you more capacity. A stock MJ spring has four leaves, so adding another leaf of the same thickness will add 20 percent to the capacity.

 

The whole point of using an XJ leaf is to increase the capacity without adding lift.