EDITED, MORE HELP NEEDED 1986 2.5 liter Manual needs a new clutch,I need some advice.

[Dogote]

More info needed, scroll to the last post. Thanks.

 

Hello everyone,

 

My 1986 long bed 2.5 liter 4x4 Comanche with a 5 speed has an issue.

 

It had all the symptoms of a bad clutch master cylinder. So I replaced the master and the slave together. It worked again, but it never seemed to have quite enough travel. It has an external slave BTW. There was no air in the system, but it would still catch a little between gears. It would be better if I double clutched it. I'd bleed it (and I know how to bleed stuff) and it would not have any air, and still be catchy between gears. The travel was never very good either. It engages pretty quick of the floor.

 

Then, after sitting for a week or two, it had no pedal. I pumped it about 10 times and it came back, then totally failed on the way to my shop.

When I bled it again, it was very hard to push in. Like the release arm was stuck, or maybe the throw out bearing was stuck on the shaft.

I had a helper push the pedal for me today and as soon as it got pressure, something popped. Hard enough to shake the whole truck (I was under it)

Now the pedal it solid, as in it feels like there is a block of wood under it.

 

I tried to work the clutch release arm (slave removed) with a pry bar. I know it is hard as hell to move them by hand even with good leverage, but I got thhe arm to flex, and it had no movement at all. Like everything is seized solid in there.

 

I was thinking the new master cylinder was bad from the start, and it may be. But, I think I need to also pull the transmission out tomorrow and see whats up in there. If I pull the transmission, I am putting in a new clutch, bearing, and front and rear seals. May as well, the labor I'll put into it is worth far more to me than the money I'll spend on the parts. I need to use this truck next week for some home improvement, and didn't want to have to deal with a new clutch. So if I have to, I am doing it right.

 

​Most of the clutch kits I see on Rock Auto have a hydraulic throw out bearing or whatever you call the internal slave. Mine has an external slave. Whats up with that? The Haynes manual shows early models have an external slave, later has the internal.

What do I buy for a 1986?

 

I still think the master I bought is a POS. Anyone know of good brand to buy? I'll spend more if it actually works.

 

Anyone had this issue before? I think I am right, maybe there is something I am missing. 

[Jeep Driver]

Something broke, obviously, you'll need to drop the trans, regardless. 

 

 

Rockauto is a waste of time........(my opinion)..........NAPA will have LUK for about $100, I'd go there. 

 

 

'86 external is it's own creature, you'll need to buy for an '86, another reason to visit NAPA than wait a week to find out your ordered the wrong clutch/pressure plate. 

 

 

Yes, aftermarket masters suck, I've gone through 4 of them. Take a pic and post it here of the master rod with the clutch pedal all the way engaged, if it's what I think, there's a fix for that. 

 

 

I suspect your TOB failed, just a guess though. 

 

LUK is good, may come with a plastic TOB, it's fine, don't worry about it. 

 

Post some pic and let us know what you found. 

[Green Mesa XJ]

If you replace the master replace the slave as well, on paper it should be fine to replace one or the other when they fail in real life I've found new problems when only one of them get replaced.

 

 

I had a Centric parts master and slave that have done ok, not really sold on that brand there may be better. I may have tried Bendix once, not sure. The OE is probably Aisin, well they look similar to Toyota truck and cars.

 

Far as clutch kits goes I would not bother the rock auto, vato zone, or the other run of the mill discount parts houses. Rock isnt bad but you have to be able to discern what is correct and incorrect, same for Amazon.

 

Through experience I leaned the 84-86 clutches are a Hodgepodge of parts. Half of the kit I bought for my 85 was correct, the shop I had do the job orders another kit and used parts both and still had to match up I think the pilot bearing.

 

Napa may have a better catalogue but be prepared to have to go back and swap it out.

 

 

 

 

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[Green Mesa XJ]

App messed up the last post.. sorry.

 

Anyway. Trouble is these early XJ/MJ are not catalogued correctly, the 87 up tend to bleed in to the listing.

Even the jeep parts catalogue is confused about those years. It never gets fixed because well it was amc and probably a lot of other now defunct companies who made these catalogues initially. Also not that many people are working on these jeeps.

 

Napa or another parts dealer with feed back from transmission shops would have a better chance of being correct the first try.

 

 

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[Dogote]

Thanks for all the replies. 

 

I agree that it is probably a TO bearing failure. I also agree that NAPA is probably my best option on the parts, my local NAPA isn't great with anything but agricultural parts, and the next nearest one is about 45 miles away. I'll give them a chance anyways. I am tired of getting the wrong part, which I end up never sending back and then tossing on a shelf where it will sit until forever. Like the heavy duty rear diff cover I bought on sale for my wife's XK, and it wasn't for a diff with electric lockers.

 

I get the thing about the parts catalogs. PITA to just order stuff for this truck. With this forum, I am starting to figure out whats what. Thanks for that.

I don't know if I'll be able to pull it apart tomorrow, hopefully I will. I will post pictures.

 

I just replaced both the master and the slave last year, less than 500 miles ago. The truck is only used locally, small town. I think the master is bad again, and I don't like the looks of the rubber flex line. I'll probably just do all 3, whats another 25 bucks to know the slave is not going to spew fluid into my new clutch.

[Green Mesa XJ]

I'm the same way with shipping crap back. Unless it's Amazon, they'll send the ups truck to pick it up. I've got stuff from Rock that was mislabeled, not high dollar items so I figure the cost vs my aggravation multiplied by my natural entropy equals stuck on a shelf.

 

Napa online has two clutch kits by LUK

One is 9 1/8" # NCF 1101020

The other in 9 11/16 #NCF 1101010

Not sure which is right, the online wouldn't let me enter transmission type. Even then their books are way the hell better than most computers, just get a counterman to look it up.

 

But their v2.8 clutch kit looked kind of right. The pilot bearing was definitely correct, most kits include the bearings for a 4.2 or 4.0. cause it's jeep 6 cylinder who'd put a crappy chevy motor in their?

 

 

 

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[dasbulliwagen]

I swapped an 86 5 speed into my 87. The original slave has a plastic cone on the end of the shaft. I installed the new slave without the cone thinking the new version didnt need it. It would barely shift, like it wasnt pushing the clutch in far enough, which was the case because I didnt transfer the plastic cone that goes on the end of the slave to lengthen it about an inch and to push the arm in far enough and provide a non metal to metal contact between the slave and the clutch arm. Not sure if this is the case with you, but thought Id share on the chance that it is.

[Dogote]

I swapped an 86 5 speed into my 87. The original slave has a plastic cone on the end of the shaft. I installed the new slave without the cone thinking the new version didnt need it. It would barely shift, like it wasnt pushing the clutch in far enough, which was the case because I didnt transfer the plastic cone that goes on the end of the slave to lengthen it about an inch and to push the arm in far enough and provide a non metal to metal contact between the slave and the clutch arm. Not sure if this is the case with you, but thought Id share on the chance that it is.

I had to use both the rod and the plastic cone from the old slave when I installed to new one. The new rod was too long to use with the plastic cone. In fact I was able to buy a new plastic cone from OMIX for it. I think they came in a 2 or 3 pack for some reason, I know I have at least one more in my box of wrong gaskets and other crap that didn't get used when I put a new head on last year, along with master, slave, brakes, hoses, and other stuff.

 

One good thing. The truck has sat since this happened last fall in the corner of an unheated airplane hangar. I charged up the battery and it ran perfectly right off the bat. Old gas and all.

[Jeep Driver]

Below is one my old masters I had laying around, a typical Sachs or store brand aftermarket. 

 

Mopar sold a repair kit for their clutch master for about $40, I found one a couple of years ago and I should have bought it, I cannot find another and they have been discontinued. 

 

IIRC, the repair kit had two plungers, the kits I can find pics for have at least a plastic follower at the end of the cartridge, below you will note an aluminum follower and only one plunger. 

 

At least on my '88, the pin on the clutch pedal arm is a little low and it does not push the rod into the master straight, if you get a clicking sound when you push your pedal in, it is the rod making contact with the master housing/bore itself. The fix is to bend the rod down slightly, this compensates for the arc of the pedal arm.  I never had one leak, they just seem to fail, maybe they suck in air.......IDK. 

 

 

 

I finally broke down a bought a complete Mopar master/slave, problem solved, however, I did bend the Mopar rod too. 

 

 

If you were close, maybe you are, I'd give you a complete 94+ bell, then you could go with the more modern Mopar master and be problem free. 

 

I had a spare Mopar master that I chucked before I realized what I had..........wish I had saved it. The aftermarkets are just poorly designed. 

 

 

[Green Mesa XJ]

Wait. The 94 up is a better slave cylinder?

What about the master? Can I use a newer mopar slave, line, and master assembly?

 

Reason I ask is i am going to convert my 1985 XJ the ax5 to ax15, I have the proper Dakota bellhousing, I thought the firewall mounts or clutch pedal were not compatible. I've seen NOS prebled mopar master and slave around.

 

I tried rebuilding the old 84-86 clutch slave and master before. Problem I had was the original parts were too worn for the seals work. Tried a junk yard to rebuild those but it was a mixed result. Ended up buying what I've got now which is after market of dubious quality.

 

 

 

 

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[Jeep Driver]

If you're going with the Dakota bell............you're going to have to go with the newer assembly anyway, pretty sure about that. 

 

You may be able to piece something together from Wilwood or other.......but........you're going to spend $200+ regardless. 

[Green Mesa XJ]

I know the newer slave can be adapted to work with the 80s master. They sell flexible line and adapters to do this.

 

I'd rather update the assembly, master and slave. But I thought the firewall opening was wrong, if a 80s XJ can use a 94-96 clutch that would be great.

 

 

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[Dogote]

Below is one my old masters I had laying around, a typical Sachs or store brand aftermarket. 

 

Mopar sold a repair kit for their clutch master for about $40, I found one a couple of years ago and I should have bought it, I cannot find another and they have been discontinued. 

 

IIRC, the repair kit had two plungers, the kits I can find pics for have at least a plastic follower at the end of the cartridge, below you will note an aluminum follower and only one plunger. 

 

At least on my '88, the pin on the clutch pedal arm is a little low and it does not push the rod into the master straight, if you get a clicking sound when you push your pedal in, it is the rod making contact with the master housing/bore itself. The fix is to bend the rod down slightly, this compensates for the arc of the pedal arm.  I never had one leak, they just seem to fail, maybe they suck in air.......IDK. 

 

 

 

I finally broke down a bought a complete Mopar master/slave, problem solved, however, I did bend the Mopar rod too. 

 

 

If you were close, maybe you are, I'd give you a complete 94+ bell, then you could go with the more modern Mopar master and be problem free. 

 

I had a spare Mopar master that I chucked before I realized what I had..........wish I had saved it. The aftermarkets are just poorly designed. 

 

 

 

 

Now I am wondering if the feeling of things in the clutch being "jammed" are actually the master cylinder piston being forced into the bore at an angle. It never really worked as well as a new master should when I replaced it, and only got worse. I am going to investigate that a little more before I tear into pulling the drive train out to do the clutch. I am not looking forward to taking this truck apart, I love this little Comanche, but its not my hobby or my passion to make it anything more than a cheap little truck we use to pick up materials with for ongoing home improvements, or hauling stuff to the dump. 

 

I have 6 motorcycles, a very modded JKUR, and Mini Cooper S, and a Hemi Commander that I have put way too much time into lately. I need a break from fixing and maintaining cars and bikes to get other stuff in life done. Plus the huge mess I'd make in my hangar, with my luck I'd have a helicopter owner needing unscheduled maintenance done half way through the truck job and it would all need to get pushed outside for a couple weeks.  

[87Warrior]

I suggest upgrading to the modern parts. I did this for my 86 a few years ago and the clutch still works perfectly.

 

My parts list included:

- 94+ XJ 2.5 bell housing and clutch fork

- Standard Luk kit for an '87 2.5

- Mopar Release bearing (throwout) for 03 Wrangler (had it on hand and it worked)

- Napa Master cylinder, hydraulic line and slave for a 94+ XJ 2.5 (individual parts, not a prebled unit)

 

You will not use the internal slave in the Luk kit, but buying this was cheaper than buying the clutch pieces individually. The pilot bearing included in the kit fit into the 86 flywheel no problem. Everything bolts up without an issue.

 

The hydraulic system takes a bit more work. You could buy the prebled/prefilled hydraulics from Napa, but I found them rather expensive. The master does requires a new mounting hole to be drilled into the firewall for one stud.

 

Bench bleed the master. You then need to assemble the master, line and slave. Use the pins provided with the parts to put it all together. Bleeding the slave is funny, since there is no bleeder on the slave. With the master installed, let the slave hang next to the transmission and fill up the master fluid level. Crawl under the truck and carefully remove the keeper from the slaves plunger. Hold the slave upright (plunger pointing down) and slowly pull out and push in the plunger with your hand, repeat many times. Keep an eye on the masters fluid, when the level stops dropping the slave should be bled. Install the slave and check pedal feel. You may need to try the funny bleeding again if it is soft.

[Dogote]

Update. I just got a chance to pull my MJ apart. 

 

The clutch fork is worn where the plastic tip of the slave cylinder contacts it. The tip of the slave cylinder slipped off. I didn't realize this until I had it out. I suspected something like that, but I couldn't see anything through the slave mounting boss. 

 

The clutch is close to the rivets. I replace everything and hopefully not be in there again.

 

Rear main seal may as well be changed too. I'm sure I'll find other stuff.

[Dogote]

And then I actually looked at the fork..........

 

It is cracked and bent. It looks like it has been working up to that for a while. My new master and slave are probably just fine, it was bending under load!

I will put it back together with all new clutch stuff and seals, but I am going to leave the slave and master I put on it last year. They have less than 500 miles on them, and they were the best ones I was able to find when I bought them.

[Dogote]

HELP NEEDED!!!

 

My clutch disc measures 9" with a tape measure. It could be 9.125" but it sure is not 9.6".

 

The LUK clutch for a 1986 2.5 measures 9.6", Later models are 9.125"

 

Did the last person to put a clutch in put in the wrong one? It worked. 

 

I am buying the complete clutch kit. will the 9.6" clutch fit my flywheel? Or should I stick with whats in it?

[Jeep Driver]

The flywheel should be the same, regardless. 

 

I'd go with a new disc and pressure plate for the '86............the 9.6" that is called for. 

[Jeep Driver]

What are  you doing about the damaged fork?

[Dogote]

What are  you doing about the damaged fork?

 

 

New fork from Crown. I think it was about $20.00.

[Dogote]

This fork:

 

http://www.omix-ada.com/clutch-k-76-86-jeep-cj.html

 

Is listed by OMIX ADA as what fits. It's not even close.