derf Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 minutes ago, Jesse J said: let's argue about jeeps not politics Of course Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jesse J Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, derf said: Of course wow watch it there you might get cruiser mad at you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
87MJTIM Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 I do not disagree with the replies. In fact, I agree with your replies. However, if I do not agree with where the "middle" is or I don't accept someone else's position, why do I have to compromise my position (whether it is Left or Right). Can we "agree to disagree" and live our lives? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 6 minutes ago, 87MJTIM said: Can we "agree to disagree" and live our lives? That's just it. We as humans are all bad at agreeing to disagree. If you step away and look at things, you see that just about all of the arguing is one group trying to tell another group how to live their lives based on their personal beliefs. And yes, everyone does it. Your side, their side, that other side, those weirdos over there... I used to think it was just my ex girlfriends who thought like this but almost everyone views "compromise" as "everyone does it the way I want". The whole point of that ad was to start to change the tone of the rhetoric that invades everything these days and work towards "agreeing to disagree". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ωhm Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Should one agree to disagree when lying is involved? Where does the truth fall between the two? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rokinn Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 I think the point of "The Middle" was to acknowledge and reinforce what we have in common as countrymen and women. Common needs, desires, aspirations for health, security, meaning, freedom to worship a deity as we wish...or not. To have our individuality validated in the pursuit of happiness. If we start from there instead of self identifying in some limited tribalistic competition zero sum approach we may just find agreement where it seemed there was none to be had. A common set of facts goes a long way toward this end. Not an easy task, to be sure, these days. There are a lot of people making money through misinformation and division as well as the destruction of the commons at our expense. As the old saying goes "A Country divided against itself cannot stand." A wise man once said to me on the subject of self knowing.....I don't know is pretty damn close. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete M Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Ωhm said: Should one agree to disagree when lying is involved? Where does the truth fall between the two? that aspect is going to take a bit more time to..... well, I'm not actually sure how to finish that thought. it certainly complicates things when interacting with people that believe the lies of politicians (and they all lie, some more than others). have patience and let the system work and maybe things will get better with time. let me put it this way, I have 0 faith in any individual in the system, but I have faith in the system to work itself out. generally this involves pendulum swings back and forth, but we always push forward and are better overall than we were before. eventually. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Sam Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Too gawd damm twangy and not enough Jeep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
500 MJ Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 The subject CJ5 appeared to me to have a reproduction tub on it. The “Jeep” on the tub had no decals on it at the beginning and the rear didn’t appear to have a tailgate or tailgate chains at all at 1:35 (best shot we get of it). Would I happily own that CJ? YES. Nothing against the aftermarket bodies, just my opinion that a commercial where you are touting your product for being 80 years old, well - I think you ought to show an example of 100% YOUR product... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JMO413 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 4 hours ago, Pete M said: I think Jeep's point of the ad was for everyone to chill out and stop seeing people on the other side of an issue as an "enemy". disagreement can exist without anger. but not if we let ourselves get continually riled up by the powers that be and the talking heads that benefit/profit from our anger. Agreed! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 I thought that ad was one of THE most cringe-worthy ads of all time. It was condescension raised to exponential levels. That is all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 3 hours ago, Ωhm said: Should one agree to disagree when lying is involved? Where does the truth fall between the two? What if the truth doesn't lie between the two, but well outside the two? What do you do when both sides lie so much that it becomes virtually impossible to discern what the truth is? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FrankTheDog Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 31 minutes ago, 500 MJ said: The subject CJ5 appeared to me to have a reproduction tub on it. The “Jeep” on the tub had no decals on it at the beginning and the rear didn’t appear to have a tailgate or tailgate chains at all at 1:35 (best shot we get of it). Would I happily own that CJ? YES. Nothing against the aftermarket bodies, just my opinion that a commercial where you are touting your product for being 80 years old, well - I think you ought to show an example of 100% YOUR product... I had an original 1980 CJ5 that had no tailgate. Not all CJ5’s came with a tailgate. Also I’m betting that one has been repainted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billyblankss Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 3 hours ago, Pete M said: that aspect is going to take a bit more time to..... well, I'm not actually sure how to finish that thought. it certainly complicates things when interacting with people that believe the lies of politicians (and they all lie, some more than others). have patience and let the system work and maybe things will get better with time. let me put it this way, I have 0 faith in any individual in the system, but I have faith in the system to work itself out. generally this involves pendulum swings back and forth, but we always push forward and are better overall than we were before. eventually. PFFT This is exactly what someone from YOUR side would say... JK obviously. We're on the same side, or the middle, or whatever. 18 minutes ago, Eagle said: I thought that ad was one of THE most cringe-worthy ads of all time. It was condescension raised to exponential levels. That is all. This is the correct answer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ωhm Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 47 minutes ago, Eagle said: What if the truth doesn't lie between the two, but well outside the two? What do you do when both sides lie so much that it becomes virtually impossible to discern what the truth is? Then we pick our truth and stand by it. So that's where we are today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jesse J Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 not to quote star wars. but many things are true from a certain point of view Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, Ωhm said: Then we pick our truth and stand by it. So that's where we are today. We don't choose what truth is. Truth IS. If everyone lies about everything, the only thing we can choose is which lie to believe, or to try to imagine what we think might be the truth. The fact we might choose to believe lie 'A' rather than lie 'B' doesn't make lie 'A' the truth. It may be (and probably is) that none of us will ever know -- within the span of our lives -- what the real truth is. Of course, at my age it's more likely that I'll never know the truth than it is for you younger folks. Maybe the truth will somehow get out within the span of your lives. But when most of the media (and effectively ALL of the major media) have been co-opted, even if you hear the truth someday, how will you know it's the truth rather than just another version of another lie? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Yup. We can choose our own opinions. But we shouldn't be attempting to choose our own facts. Trouble is, this saying is true and everyone falls into this trap to one degree or another: To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the skeptic, no proof is possible. Even people who profess to be open minded rarely are. It does you no good to always question everything if you just reject the answers you don't like. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
75sv1 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 8 hours ago, Jesse J said: not to quote star wars. but many things are true from a certain point of view Yes, the XJ/MJ was the 'New Hope'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ωhm Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 The problem with the truth is no one can change your mind. Only you can pick your truths. Right/wrong, good/evil, up/down, left/right. You choose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
89 MJ Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 We would also be a lot better off if people wouldn't get their panties in a wad every time someone disagrees with them (ahem, my generation). Some other words of advice, don't argue with an idiot, people won't be able to tell who the real idiot is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rokinn Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 So oft in theologic wars, The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen! "We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." Werner Heisenberg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 30 minutes ago, 89 MJ said: We would also be a lot better off if people wouldn't get their panties in a wad every time someone disagrees with them (ahem, my generation). Some other words of advice, don't argue with an idiot, people won't be able to tell who the real idiot is. Some of the worst offenders there are old farts set in their ways getting their knickers in a twist when dealing with change. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete M Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 the inability to even try to understand another point of view knows no age limits. (this is completely separate from agreement or compromise) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
derf Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 minute ago, Pete M said: the inability to even try to understand another point of view knows no age limits. (this is completely separate from agreement or compromise) Yep. From the farm town cafe to the big city coffe shop, everyone sits around in their own echo chamber. No one wants to put forward the effort to look at anything from someone else's point of view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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