Fog Lights

[redwolf624]

looks folks, the point is, my lights are wired in, they cut off with the hi beams (just as VA law says), who cares if i used skido's diagram, i was only gonna use that if my truck HAD a relay, i'm NOT addin any crap under that dash if i don't have to, my lights work, they're legal and everything is still normal, end of subject,

 

Redwolf

[yxmj]

Actually the relay would /could be mounted under the hood......it does not have to go under the dash

 

With all do respect......i was one of the first to respond to your thread about what your gear ratio was in your rear end.....and i gave you a FOOL proof way to identify your ratio and solve your problem on the second page of that post.....but you argued and bickered with men who offered you tried and true methods to solve your problem till that thread ran over 100 posts (i would bet 2 bottles of bourbon that that diff cover has never been removed and the that you know the truth......tag means nothing....how do you know it has never been changed ?)

I was also one of the original replies to this post and after seeing it was going the same way your other post put up the 100 post bet.......what is the point of putting up a post to ask for help if you are not going to listen to the help given.

 

To put in perspective for you look back at the MJ tech Forum....someone posted a request on needing help to put his driveshaft back on after it fell off during towing.

 

Have had the experience of this happening i replied with helpful (in my opinion advice) and diagrams.........one question.......one answer....i bet that guy is cruzin with pride in being able to do his own repair.

 

For you bud.......my next bet would be your next post will be how to replace a fried highbeam switch........but that is just MHO  . :MJ 1: .

[yxmj]

 

I think you are missing the point......I do not know what you have wired into......but the idea of the relay is to isolate the fog/driving lights on to there own circuit direct from the battery.

 

What ever you have tapped into was not designed to have another (4-8?) amp draw through it. You will probably overheat it and end up damaging the stock circuitry 

10-15 amp actually and i doubt that since 1 i don't do much night drivin and 2 it's for a HEADLIGHT

 

> 

 

 

since yall all said there's no relays i took my boneheaded self out to the headlights, figured out which wire powered what and traced em, found out they were all plugged into what looks like a giant white relay, my lights are now wired in to the low beams, they shut off with the hi beams,

 

Redwolf

 

And exactly where is this what looks like a giant white relay located?

under the dash above the break pedal,

 

Redwolf

 

Look like the below? That's your high beam switch, not a relay.

 

no not like that, i'll post a picture once photobucket on my phone works again in a few,

 

Redwolf

 

Just reference were you quoted me......so the 10 -12 amps are not as harmful as the 4-8  in the example.........FYI IT IS WORSE 

[martin809]

 

since yall all said there's no relays i took my boneheaded self out to the headlights, figured out which wire powered what and traced em, found out they were all plugged into what looks like a giant white relay, my lights are now wired in to the low beams, they shut off with the hi beams,

 

Redwolf

 

So you didn't pay attention to what all of us have been telling you, and you didn't use a relay. I can tell you what's going to happen, because I did the same thing over 30 years ago with a full-size Cherokee. The headlight circuit doesn't have a fuse, there's a circuit breaker built into the switch. That switch and circuit breaker are designed to carry the amperage load of TWO headlights, plus the parking lights and taillights.

 

By addiing two driving lights to the circuit, you have now almost doubled the amperage that's being carried by the headlight circuit -- and thus by the circuit breaker in the switch. I'll give it about six to eight months, if you use the auxiliary lights very much, before you burn out the headlight switch and the circuit breaker starts tripping open while you're driving. I absolutely promise you that having your headlights suddenly shut off while you're cruising along on a strange road on a dark night is NOT an experience you want to repeat. However ... unless you have a way to shut off those auxiliary lights, the experience WILL repeat, because whenever you run the headlights and the auxiliary lights you WILL be overloading the circuit.

 

Why do you bother coming here and asking for advice, when people who know how this stuff works give you good advice and you proceed to ignore it? Many of us have been around for awhile, and we've already made the mistakes you haven't even thought about yet.

 

 

 

As to your inspector and legality -- if you run a stop sign and don't get a ticket, does that make it legal to run stop signs? I've given you the law, and explained it to you. It's up to you whether or not you want to be legal. Since it's no more difficult to do it right than it is to do it wrong, I just don't understand your insistance on doing it wrong.

 

But ... it's your life, and it'll be your ticket. At least you won't be able to blame it on The Comanche Club for telling you to do it wrong.

I too learned this back in the mid 80s. I had lights on top of my Blazer and kept burning switches. I did not know about relays at the time. lesson learned. :agree:

[Oyaji]

 

 

 

i have no relays, just straight wires, my fog lights didn't come with a relay and i obviously don't know what a relay looks like for 86 (i don't even know what they look like now) but like i said, i got until may to get my fog lights right to shut off with the hi beams, i just gotta find the relay and a way to wire my lights into it to shut it off with the hi beams,

 

 

Redwolf

 

Skidoo gave you the wiring diagram. You need to BUY two (2) relays. The way to wire your lights is to wire them according to Ski's diagram.

 

And I don't care what you want to believe, if you have driving lights and you wire them like fog lights you will NOT be legal.

.

Say - since the current draw required to trip the switch in the relay and keep it closed is small, is there really a need to use 2 relays? Seems there would be enough reserve capacity in the circuit to allow tapping into one of the low-beam wires behind a headlight and using it to energize the relay.

.

What is the energizing current requirement for those automotive relays - not more than a quarter amp, right? I've always piggy-backed a relay to power another circuit just as I have described, by drawing minimal energizing power from the parent circuit itself.  Energizing a relay to energize another relay to power the auxiliary circuit seems unnecessary and wasteful to me, to be honest.  Would that maybe be to power a much larger relay needed to supply a LOT of current for more than 2 high-power lights? What am I missing?.                         

 

If what you're asking is if rather then using a second relay powered by the high beam circuit to turn off the fogs lights  vs   using the low beam circut to power the switch that controls the first relay then yes you could do that and eliminate one relay,   

 

the down side to powering it in this manner is you then could only use your fogs when your low beam circut is enabled.   

So no just fog option, or no back up lights if you have a fuse or circut go out on the factory lights.   I've had my headlight switch go out twice prior to isolating highs and lows to relays too, .  

.

Yes indeed, that was what I was getting at, alright.

.

Going back and looking carefully at  your 2-relay diagram, I now see the advantage you describe. When the high-beams kick on, the second relay wired to the high-beams  OPENS the circuit, cutting off the supply current to the fog lights Nifty, to be sure, for it allows the fog lights to function if the headlights fail while defeating their use with the high beams.

.

But... the way I read your diagram, lights wired that way will still operate in the absence of low-beam and/or tail lights - which is contrary to this requirement:

(1) Fog lamps are general illumination lamps as covered in 19VAC30-70-160 D. They must burn through the tail light circuit even if on a separate switch. If installed on a vehicle with a four-headlamp system or a vehicle equipped with driving lamps, they must be wired into the low beam circuit.

Am I missing something again?

[Rockfrog]

Mmmmm ... I love the smell of fried wiring at midnight. :blink: ;)

[skidoo_j]

But... the way I read your diagram, lights wired that way will still operate in the absence of low-beam and/or tail lights - which is contrary to this requirement:

(1) Fog lamps are general illumination lamps as covered in 19VAC30-70-160 D. They must burn through the tail light circuit even if on a separate switch. If installed on a vehicle with a four-headlamp system or a vehicle equipped with driving lamps, they must be wired into the low beam circuit.

Am I missing something again?

Well pull the power off the tail light cicrut to control the switch in the cab.   It would meet the requirement and keep it isolated from the headlight switch.   

[Oyaji]

 

But... the way I read your diagram, lights wired that way will still operate in the absence of low-beam and/or tail lights - which is contrary to this requirement:

(1) Fog lamps are general illumination lamps as covered in 19VAC30-70-160 D. They must burn through the tail light circuit even if on a separate switch. If installed on a vehicle with a four-headlamp system or a vehicle equipped with driving lamps, they must be wired into the low beam circuit.

Am I missing something again?

Well pull the power off the tail light cicrut to control the switch in the cab.   It would meet the requirement and keep it isolated from the headlight switch.   

.

Roger that. Since tail lights are on a separate circuit from high and low beams,  it would meet the letter of the law to use them  (in place of the ign tap shown) to energize the first relay.

[Eagle]

.

Say - since the current draw required to trip the switch in the relay and keep it closed is small, is there really a need to use 2 relays? Seems there would be enough reserve capacity in the circuit to allow tapping into one of the low-beam wires behind a headlight and using it to energize the relay.

.

What is the energizing current requirement for those automotive relays - not more than a quarter amp, right? I've always piggy-backed a relay to power another circuit just as I have described, by drawing minimal energizing power from the parent circuit itself.  Energizing a relay to energize another relay to power the auxiliary circuit seems unnecessary and wasteful to me, to be honest.  Would that maybe be to power a much larger relay  (with higher than a 0.25 amp engergizing demand) needed to supply a LOT of current for, say, more than 2 high-power lights? What am I missing?.                         

 

The purpose of the two relays is to be able to run the FOG lights off a tap to the parking lights, so you can run them either with the low beams or  -- in REALLY heavy fog, when even low beams create a blinding reflection -- with just the parking lights.

 

But ... when the tap is from the parking lights, the FOG lights will stay on with either high beams or low beams. The second relay is wired normally closed (on), and tapped off the high beam circuit. When it sees current, it opens and turns off the FOG lights.

 

Study Skidoo's diagram carefully. He didn't tap off the parking lights, he tapped off a circuit that's controlled by the ignition switch. Doing it his way, you don't even need the parking lights -- and the fog lights will automatically go off when you turn off the ignition. It doesn't matter if the first tap is off the ignition or off the parking lights. It's the second relay that turns the fog lights off when the high beams are activated.

[Oyaji]

 

.

Say - since the current draw required to trip the switch in the relay and keep it closed is small, is there really a need to use 2 relays? Seems there would be enough reserve capacity in the circuit to allow tapping into one of the low-beam wires behind a headlight and using it to energize the relay.

.

What is the energizing current requirement for those automotive relays - not more than a quarter amp, right? I've always piggy-backed a relay to power another circuit just as I have described, by drawing minimal energizing power from the parent circuit itself.  Energizing a relay to energize another relay to power the auxiliary circuit seems unnecessary and wasteful to me, to be honest.  Would that maybe be to power a much larger relay  (with higher than a 0.25 amp engergizing demand) needed to supply a LOT of current for, say, more than 2 high-power lights? What am I missing?.                         

 

The purpose of the two relays is to be able to run the FOG lights off a tap to the parking lights, so you can run them either with the low beams or  -- in REALLY heavy fog, when even low beams create a blinding reflection -- with just the parking lights.

 

But ... when the tap is from the parking lights, the FOG lights will stay on with either high beams or low beams. The second relay is wired normally closed (on), and tapped off the high beam circuit. When it sees current, it opens and turns off the FOG lights.

 

Study Skidoo's diagram carefully. He didn't tap off the parking lights, he tapped off a circuit that's controlled by the ignition switch. Doing it his way, you don't even need the parking lights -- and the fog lights will automatically go off when you turn off the ignition. It doesn't matter if the first tap is off the ignition or off the parking lights. It's the second relay that turns the fog lights off when the high beams are activated.

.

Just the conclusion I came to in the posts that followed the one you quoted - take a peek at those that follow, and you'll see I pointed out the flaw   in using the ignition to power the first relay with regard to compliance with the law.

.

My lack in comprehension came from only having used relays in the past to CLOSE a circuit - never to OPEN one. A close look at  Skidoo's circuit diagram was indeed enlightening. I agree that  the cost of the second relay is justified by  offering    a fail-safe isolated secondary lighting circuit.

[Eagle]

.

Just the conclusion I came up within the posts that followed the one you quoted - take a peek at those that follow, and you'll see I pointed out the flaw   in using the ignition to power the first relay with regard to compliance with the law.

.

My lack in comprehension came from only having used relays in the past to CLOSE a circuit - never to OPEN one. A close look at the Skidoo's circuit diagram was indeed enlightening. I agree that  the cost of the second relay is justified by  offering    a fail-safe isolated secondary lighting circuit.

 

I prefer not to admit just how many years I wasted looking for a source of normally closed relays for circuits just such as this -- never realizing that ALL the relays I already had offered that function just by moving a wire between terminals 87 and 87A. I don't rightly remember where and when I finally awoke to the reality, but it was without doubt an epiphany.

[Oyaji]

looks folks, the point is, my lights are wired in, they cut off with the hi beams (just as VA law says), who cares if i used skido's diagram, i was only gonna use that if my truck HAD a relay, i'm NOT addin any crap under that dash if i don't have to, my lights work, they're legal and everything is still normal, end of subject,

 

Redwolf

.

I really hate to say it, but I really feel the need to point out that, since you insist on going your own way, you really should invest in one of these:

.

.

.

because this is the direction you are heading:

.

[HOrnbrod]

Most all quality electromechanical automotive relays have an internal wiring diagram printed on the case always showing the relay in a de-energized state. Thus pins 30 & 87a are the normally closed (NC) load contact applications, 30 & 87 are the normally open (NO) load contacts. Pins 85 & 86 are the relay coil pins, one tied to 12VDC (normally pin 85) and the other to ground. Applying either a 12VDC or ground signal to the respective coil pin energizes the relay and the load contacts change state. These assigned pin numbers are universally applied to all common 30A and 40A automotive relays.

 

[Pete M]

pretty sure we've beaten this topic to death.  if anyone has new or useful things to add to the discussion, feel free.  but if not, please stop.

[jpdriver1]

 

looks folks, the point is, my lights are wired in, they cut off with the hi beams (just as VA law says), who cares if i used skido's diagram, i was only gonna use that if my truck HAD a relay, i'm NOT addin any crap under that dash if i don't have to, my lights work, they're legal and everything is still normal, end of subject,

 

Redwolf

.

I really hate to say it, but I really feel the need to point out that, since you insist on going your own way, you really should invest in one of these:

.

.

.

because this is the direction you are heading:

.

I recognize that 92 --- was my son's rig -- still have some of the parts in the storage, bed to become a trailer soon.