Fog Lights

[redwolf624]

 

oh i know, today i'm goin down to the only state inspector i go to now, since he knew my truck had neutral safety switch when it was built, and askin him bout the fog light drivin light thing, if indeed the state of virginia requires drivin lights only to be wired to turn on with hi beams then i'm takin em back to walmart and goin on another holly quest for fog lights that are water prove,

 

I forgot that you're in Virginia.

 

Do you remember when the Liberty first came out to replace the Cherokee? One of the factory options on the Libby was a set of four off-road lights mounted on the roof. Guess which state did NOT allow that option to be sold within its borders. If you guessed "Virginia," you win the game. Virginia is very strict on lights.

 

But, even if they weren't, I don't know about Pete but I'm not going to go on a public forum and recommend to people that they knowingly break the law. The law is the law. You're going to be making your own wiring harness from scratch. It's not much more work to do it right than to do it wrong, so why not do it right?

 

And then there's the issue of the right kind of lights. Driving lights DON'T WORK as fog lights. If you install driving lights when you want fog lights, you are WASTING TIME AND MONEY AND EFFORT.

 

Just do it right, for Gawd's sake. Get the right lights for the job, and wire them in according to the law. Why are you now so interested in doing it completely wrong, when you started off asking us how to do it right?

eagle, i'm not startin an arguement so don't take it as that but look at a set of fog lights and drivin lights by the same maker closely, the only real difference is the lense, just sayin, also acordin to a state inspector in virginia beach, he said drivin lights HAVE to go off when the hi beams are turned on, ya can only have 4 lights on with the exception of marker lights, so if ya have hi and low beams on at the same time, the drivin/fog lights have to turn off,

 

Redwolf

[redwolf624]

these are the fog and drivin lights i've been lookin at, unless there's somethin i'm missin in the spec they're the same thing only with different lenses,

 

Fog Lights:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_fog-light-amber-blazer_10011907-p?navigationPath=L1*14920%7CL2*15004%7CL3*15639#fragment-2

 

Driving Lights:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_drive-light-clear-blazer_10011905-p?searchTerm=blazer+driving+lights#fragment-2

 

Redwolf

[Pete M]

maybe it's just me, but after reading the last bit it would appear that we all agree that fog lights (wide pattern) are different than driving lights (narrow pattern) and one should only use the proper light for the job at hand.

 

:dunno:

[yxmj]

 

 

oh i know, today i'm goin down to the only state inspector i go to now, since he knew my truck had neutral safety switch when it was built, and askin him bout the fog light drivin light thing, if indeed the state of virginia requires drivin lights only to be wired to turn on with hi beams then i'm takin em back to walmart and goin on another holly quest for fog lights that are water prove,

 

I forgot that you're in Virginia.

 

Do you remember when the Liberty first came out to replace the Cherokee? One of the factory options on the Libby was a set of four off-road lights mounted on the roof. Guess which state did NOT allow that option to be sold within its borders. If you guessed "Virginia," you win the game. Virginia is very strict on lights.

 

But, even if they weren't, I don't know about Pete but I'm not going to go on a public forum and recommend to people that they knowingly break the law. The law is the law. You're going to be making your own wiring harness from scratch. It's not much more work to do it right than to do it wrong, so why not do it right?

 

And then there's the issue of the right kind of lights. Driving lights DON'T WORK as fog lights. If you install driving lights when you want fog lights, you are WASTING TIME AND MONEY AND EFFORT.

 

Just do it right, for Gawd's sake. Get the right lights for the job, and wire them in according to the law. Why are you now so interested in doing it completely wrong, when you started off asking us how to do it right?

eagle, i'm not startin an arguement so don't take it as that but look at a set of fog lights and drivin lights by the same maker closely, the only real difference is the lense, just sayin, also acordin to a state inspector in virginia beach, he said drivin lights HAVE to go off when the hi beams are turned on, ya can only have 4 lights on with the exception of marker lights, so if ya have hi and low beams on at the same time, the drivin/fog lights have to turn off,

 

Redwolf

When you have the high and low beams on at the same time................worlds collide and you enter the 3D dimension,,,

 

,(FYI this can't happen....the manufacturer made it so that it is either high...or low....not both)

 

,My friend 3 bits of advice

1) Download Google Chrome just for the spell check

2) Re-read your posts......before you click on post......just to be sure

3) Check your facts,,,,3 times before questioning anything.......you seem to be VERY misinformed.  . :MJ 1: .

[redwolf624]

 

 

 

oh i know, today i'm goin down to the only state inspector i go to now, since he knew my truck had neutral safety switch when it was built, and askin him bout the fog light drivin light thing, if indeed the state of virginia requires drivin lights only to be wired to turn on with hi beams then i'm takin em back to walmart and goin on another holly quest for fog lights that are water prove,

 

I forgot that you're in Virginia.

 

Do you remember when the Liberty first came out to replace the Cherokee? One of the factory options on the Libby was a set of four off-road lights mounted on the roof. Guess which state did NOT allow that option to be sold within its borders. If you guessed "Virginia," you win the game. Virginia is very strict on lights.

 

But, even if they weren't, I don't know about Pete but I'm not going to go on a public forum and recommend to people that they knowingly break the law. The law is the law. You're going to be making your own wiring harness from scratch. It's not much more work to do it right than to do it wrong, so why not do it right?

 

And then there's the issue of the right kind of lights. Driving lights DON'T WORK as fog lights. If you install driving lights when you want fog lights, you are WASTING TIME AND MONEY AND EFFORT.

 

Just do it right, for Gawd's sake. Get the right lights for the job, and wire them in according to the law. Why are you now so interested in doing it completely wrong, when you started off asking us how to do it right?

eagle, i'm not startin an arguement so don't take it as that but look at a set of fog lights and drivin lights by the same maker closely, the only real difference is the lense, just sayin, also acordin to a state inspector in virginia beach, he said drivin lights HAVE to go off when the hi beams are turned on, ya can only have 4 lights on with the exception of marker lights, so if ya have hi and low beams on at the same time, the drivin/fog lights have to turn off,

 

Redwolf

When you have the high and low beams on at the same time................worlds collide and you enter the 3D dimension,,,

 

,(FYI this can't happen....the manufacturer made it so that it is either high...or low....not both)

 

,My friend 3 bits of advice

1) Download Google Chrome just for the spell check

2) Re-read your posts......before you click on post......just to be sure

3) Check your facts,,,,3 times before questioning anything.......you seem to be VERY misinformed.  . :MJ 1: .

it is possible to have both, my dad had an old impala that had dual head lights, ya had low beams on when the lights were on then once ya clicked the hi beams to come on ya had both low and hi beams on, i'm not very misinformed, i'm just confused as to how yall say fog and drivin lights are different, the only difference i see is the lense,

 

Redwolf

[nitroxsteve]

 

oh i know, today i'm goin down to the only state inspector i go to now, since he knew my truck had neutral safety switch when it was built, and askin him bout the fog light drivin light thing, if indeed the state of virginia requires drivin lights only to be wired to turn on with hi beams then i'm takin em back to walmart and goin on another holly quest for fog lights that are water prove,

 

I forgot that you're in Virginia.

 

Do you remember when the Liberty first came out to replace the Cherokee? One of the factory options on the Libby was a set of four off-road lights mounted on the roof. Guess which state did NOT allow that option to be sold within its borders. If you guessed "Virginia," you win the game. Virginia is very strict on lights.

 

But, even if they weren't, I don't know about Pete but I'm not going to go on a public forum and recommend to people that they knowingly break the law. The law is the law. You're going to be making your own wiring harness from scratch. It's not much more work to do it right than to do it wrong, so why not do it right?

 

And then there's the issue of the right kind of lights. Driving lights DON'T WORK as fog lights. If you install driving lights when you want fog lights, you are WASTING TIME AND MONEY AND EFFORT.

 

Just do it right, for Gawd's sake. Get the right lights for the job, and wire them in according to the law. Why are you now so interested in doing it completely wrong, when you started off asking us how to do it right?

Actually it was West Virginia that would not allow the lights on the roof. When I did vehicle inspections in WV no lights were allowed to be mounted above the headlights. Not sure about VA.

[HOrnbrod]

My 2 cents......I would bet a bottle of Bourbon that this thread goes 100 + posts before and lights get purchased and mounted correctly.  :rotf:

 

I'll take a pass on that bet.

[Pete M]

 i'm just confused as to how yall say fog and drivin lights are different, the only difference i see is the lens,

 

Redwolf

 

the lens IS the difference. :thumbsup:   fog light lenses spread the light out in a broad, wide beam (also the lenses are frequently yellow to help cut through the fog).  driving lights are more focused to push the light further down the road.  this means driving lights are WAY brighter in the eyes of oncoming motorists (which is why they are allowed only with the brights on)

[skidoo_j]

 

 

Driving lights  cast a narrow long-distance beam (farther than high-beams do) and are quite different from fog lights, which cast a wide, shallow, flat beam (good for shining under fog to reduce glare).  For that reason, FMVSS law requires driving lights to be wired to come on only with the high beams. For the driving I generally do, I prefer driving lights so I can see deer well off in the distance, so I use driving lights (YMMV).         

 

.

With regard to mounting - I guess the hardest bit would be the wiring, so removing the bumper would give you additional space to work. I am lazy that way and will accept a certain amount of skinned knuckles to get the job done the harder way if I think it is faster.... but man! why don't you stick your nose under the bumper and figure it out? :D

i did, looks closed off like a tube bumper or somethin unless the plastic dirt skirt is in the way  :dunno: can't see a way to take that bumper off either :( and if lights are aimed right they can be used for anything with the right modification, just throwin my 2 cent out there :D

 

Redwolf

 

No, they can't. Because the lenses are different, and the reflectors are different, so the lights throw light in a completely different pattern. Aiming driving lights low enough to not blind on-coming drivers would make them useless as driving lights, and because the beam is very narrow they would also be useless as fog lights.

 

And the fact remains, however you aim them they ARE driving lights, and the law for driving lights is that they can operate ONLY with the high beams ... while the law for fog lights is that they canNOT operate with the high beams. Skidoo's excellent wiring diagram is NOT correct for driving lights. It can be modified to work for driving lights, but as drawn it is WRONG if your lights are driving lights.

 

And, by the way, just putting a yellow lens on a driving light doesn't make it a fog light.

To modify the diagram for driving lights simply move the connector from the second relay to pin 87 instead of 87a.   That will then only allow power when High beams are on.  

 

You could also keep fogs on 87a that way when you're on low your fogs would be on and in high your driving lights would be on.  

[redwolf624]

 

 i'm just confused as to how yall say fog and drivin lights are different, the only difference i see is the lens,

 

Redwolf

 

the lens IS the difference. :thumbsup:   fog light lenses spread the light out in a broad, wide beam (also the lenses are frequently yellow to help cut through the fog).  driving lights are more focused to push the light further down the road.  this means driving lights are WAY brighter in the eyes of oncoming motorists (which is why they are allowed only with the brights on)

ok so i'm not missin somethin :) and dependin on what state you're in depends on weather drivin lights have to be on with hi beams, VA they have to shut off when hi beams are on, everything has to shut off when the hi beams are on,

 

Redwolf

[yxmj]

My friend

 

I am in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada 1774 Miles from your home.  . :MJ 1: .

 

You are just a few inches from your keyboard......type in Google......

 

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/wvcode/code.cfm?chap=17c&art=15

 

The info you need is here

 

§17C-15-17. Spot lamps and other auxiliary lamps.

[redwolf624]

My friend

 

I am in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada 1774 Miles from your home.  . :MJ 1: .

 

You are just a few inches from your keyboard......type in Google......

 

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/wvcode/code.cfm?chap=17c&art=15

 

The info you need is here

 

§17C-15-17. Spot lamps and other auxiliary lamps.

1. already have that site for my state, va, 2. i already know the law for the lights,

 

Redwolf

[yxmj]

Good Stuff

Well bolt those puppies on and post a picture of the finished product. :thumbsup:

[Eagle]

 

My friend

 

I am in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada 1774 Miles from your home.  . :MJ 1: .

 

You are just a few inches from your keyboard......type in Google......

 

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/wvcode/code.cfm?chap=17c&art=15

 

The info you need is here

 

§17C-15-17. Spot lamps and other auxiliary lamps.

1. already have that site for my state, va, 2. i already know the law for the lights,

 

Redwolf

 

I don't think you do. If you have a site that spells out the law for Virginia, post the link to it. Because what you posted a couple of posts back is wrong:

 

ok so i'm not missin somethin :) and dependin on what state you're in depends on weather drivin lights have to be on with hi beams, VA they have to shut off when hi beams are on, everything has to shut off when the hi beams are on,

 

Federal law requires that FOG lights shut off when the high beams are on, and DRIVING lights shut off when the high beams are NOT on. I very much doubt that Virginia has a state law that is directly the opposite of the federal law.

 

Let's see the source documentation for what you think you know.

[Eagle]

Never mind -- I found it. You cannot legally install DRIVING lights on your MJ in Virginia -- period. You can install FOG lights. The reason is that Jeep never offered DRIVING lights for the XJ or the MJ -- only FOG lights.

 

This section of the law also explains why the Liberty could not be sold in VA with the four optional, rooftop off-road lights.

 

http://www.lawserver.com/law/state/virginia/va-code/virginia_code_46-2-1020

 

Virginia Code 46.2-1020 - Other permissible lights Virginia Code > Title 46.2 > Chapter 10 > § 46.2-1020 - Other permissible lights

^{Current as of: 2011}

^{Check for updates}

2008 version

§ 46.2-1020. Other permissible lights.

Any motor vehicle may be equipped with fog lights, not more than two of which can be illuminated at any time, one or two auxiliary driving lights if so equipped by the manufacturer, two daytime running lights, two side lights of not more than six candlepower, an interior light or lights of not more than 15 candlepower each, and signal lights.

The provision of this section limiting interior lights to no more than 15 candlepower shall not apply to (i) alternating, blinking, or flashing colored emergency lights mounted inside law-enforcement motor vehicles which may otherwise legally be equipped with such colored emergency lights, or (ii) flashing shielded red or red and white lights, authorized under § 46.2-1024, mounted inside vehicles owned or used by (a) members of volunteer fire companies or volunteer rescue squads, ( B) professional fire fighters, or © police chaplains. A vehicle equipped with lighting devices as authorized in this section shall be operated by a police chaplain only if he has successfully completed a course of training in the safe operation of a motor vehicle under emergency conditions and a certificate attesting to such successful completion, signed by the course instructor, is carried at all times in the vehicle when operated by the police chaplain to whom the certificate applies.

Unless such lighting device is both covered and unlit, no motor vehicle which is equipped with any lighting device other than lights required or permitted in this article, required or approved by the Superintendent, or required by the federal Department of Transportation shall be operated on any highway in the Commonwealth. Nothing in this section shall permit any vehicle, not otherwise authorized, to be equipped with colored emergency lights, whether blinking or steady-burning.

(Code 1950, § 46-273; 1954, c. 310; 1958, c. 541, § 46.1-267; 1960, cc. 156, 391; 1962, c. 512; 1966, cc. 655, 664; 1968, c. 89; 1972, c. 7; 1974, c. 537; 1976, c. 6; 1977, c. 72; 1978, cc. 311, 357; 1980, c. 337; 1981, c. 338; 1984, cc. 440, 539; 1985, cc. 248, 269, 287, 462; 1986, cc. 124, 127, 229; 1987, cc. 347, 370; 1988, cc. 339, 351; 1989, c. 727; 1991, c. 516; 1995, c. 122; 2003, c. 153; 2006, c. 122.)

[Oyaji]

I very much doubt that Virginia has a state law that is directly the opposite of the federal law.

.

And you would be correct. States may make more stringent requirements, but they cannot contradict federal law.

.

'Bout 150 years ago we had a war that ultimately decided  once and for all that states' rights were subordinate to the federal government. When I was a kid they still taught that in history class - you'd think it still would  be  taught nowadays, right?   :doh:       

[Eagle]

My friend

 

I am in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada 1774 Miles from your home.  . :MJ 1: .

 

You are just a few inches from your keyboard......type in Google......

 

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/wvcode/code.cfm?chap=17c&art=15

 

The info you need is here

 

§17C-15-17. Spot lamps and other auxiliary lamps.

 

Wrong state ...

[redwolf624]

check this out eagle, section 10 is on drivin lights http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+reg+19VAC30-70-530

 

http://lis.virginia.gov/000/reg/Toc19030.htm.htm that's the home page that my state inspector refers to if anything is questioned,

 

Redwolf

[Eagle]

check this out eagle, section 10 is on drivin lights http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+reg+19VAC30-70-530

 

http://lis.virginia.gov/000/reg/Toc19030.htm.htm that's the home page that my state inspector refers to if anything is questioned,

 

Redwolf

 

Yeah?

 

Did you read it? There's a lot in there that applies directly to you:

 

9VAC30-70-530. Auxiliary lamps: backup; cornering; driving; fog; spot and warning.

 

A. Auxiliary lamps on a vehicle consist of seven general types: backup lamps (SAE-R), cornering lamps (SAE-K), driving lamps (SAE-Y), front fog lamps with an amber or clear lens (SAE-F) and rear fog lamps with red lens (SAE-F2), spot lamps (SAE-O), warning lamps (SAE-W), and daytime running lamps (DRLs) (SAE-Y2).

This immediately tells you that FOG lights are different from DRIVING lights. They have a different SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) type code. You can't buy a driving light and call it a fog light ... even by changing the lens.

 

 

C. No more than four lamps, including two headlamps may be lighted at any time to provide general illumination ahead of the vehicle.

 

For an MJ, this means you can have two fog lights, two driving lights, or one of each. For your father's old car with the quad headlights, since driving lights come on with the high beams and he had four high beams already, he could not have added driving lights. He COULD have added two fog lights -- as long as they were wired to turn off when the high beams turned on.

 

 

 

K. Inspect for and reject if:

1. Vehicle has an auxiliary lamp being used for a purpose other than that for which it was approved.

 

Translation: You can't use a driving light as a fog light, or a fog light as a driving light.

 

 

K. Inspect for and reject if:

 

...

 

3. Vehicle is equipped with a combination of auxiliary lamps which include more than two fog lamps, or more than two spot lamps, or more than two driving lamps. Motor vehicles may be equipped with more than two fog or auxiliary lights; however, only two of these types of lights can be illuminated at any time. Reject a vehicle equipped with a headlamp mounted or used as an auxiliary lamp.

NOTE: Vehicles equipped from the factory, with two driving lamps should not be rejected.

 

Note specifically that it says vehicles equipped from the factory with two driving lights shall not be rejected. This is consistent with the state law.

 

 

K. Inspect for and reject if:

 

...

 

 

10. Driving lamps are not required. However, if installed they must operate and be inspected.

Inspect for and reject if:

a. Driving lamps are installed on vehicles equipped with the four-headlamp system, except the "F" type headlamp system.

b. A vehicle is equipped with more than two driving lamps.

c. Driving lamps are not of an approved type (DOT or SAE-Y) or have been altered.

d. The color of the lamp is other than white.

e. The lens has a piece broken from it or is rotated away from its proper position. The lens may have one or more cracks provided an off-color light does not project through the crack or cracks.

f. Wiring or electrical connections are defective or filaments do not burn.

g. Any driving lamp is mounted above the level of the regular headlamps, or is not mounted firmly to prevent excessive vibration.

h. Driving lamps are not wired so that they will burn only when the high beams of the regular headlamps are activated.

i. Driving lamps are not aimed so that the center of the hot spot drops three inches in 25 feet so that the hot spot is directly ahead of the lamp.

NOTE: Driving lamps must be aimed using the optical headlight aimer. A tolerance of four inches in 25 feet is allowed in both the horizontal and the vertical adjustment.

 

Driving lights MUST be wired so they only operate with the high beams on. You can't install driving lights and try to modify them to be fog lights.

 

 

11. Fog lamps are not required. However, if installed they must operate and be inspected.

Inspect for and reject if:

a. A vehicle may be equipped with more than two fog lamps; however, not more than two lamps can be illuminated at any time.

b. Lamps are not of an approved type (SAE or DOT-F or F2) or a lamp has been altered.

c. The lens is other than clear or amber. (Fog lamps may have black end bulbs or small metal caps over the end of the bulb.)

d. The lens has a piece broken from it or is rotated away from its proper position. The lens may have one or more cracks provided an off-color light does not project through the crack or cracks.

e. Wiring or electrical connections are defective or filaments do not burn.

f. Any fog lamp is mounted above the level of the regular headlamps, or is not mounted firmly.

g. Lamps are not wired and aimed according to the following instructions:

(1) Fog lamps are general illumination lamps as covered in 19VAC30-70-160 D. They must burn through the tail light circuit even if on a separate switch. If installed on a vehicle with a four-headlamp system or a vehicle equipped with driving lamps, they must be wired into the low beam circuit.

(2) Fog lamps must be aimed so that the top edge of the high intensity zone is set at the horizontal centerline and the left edge of the high intensity zone is set at the vertical centerline. (Same as low beam headlights.)

NOTE: Fog lamps must be aimed using the optical headlight aimer.

(3) A tolerance of four inches in 25 feet is allowed in both the horizontal and the vertical adjustment.

 

Fog lights must be an approved type. No alterations allowed.

 

 

Statutory Authority

§ 46.2-1165 of the Code of Virginia.

 

This document is an administrative regulation. It is a "law," but only because it exists and functions under the "statutory authority" of the section of state statute I cited earlier. An administrative regulation can NEVER cancel, override, or contradict the statute. Statutes rule. The language of the statute is clear: you can add fog lights, but driving lights are allowed ONLY from the factory.

[redwolf624]

ok eagle ya win, i didn't read the part where it said they have to be on with hi beams, but if that's the case explain to me WHY they make white lensed fog lights that look JUST like fog lights,

 

Redwolf

[Pete M]

in the end, lens color is pretty much irrelevant.  you can make them any color you want because yellow is only kinda better for seeing through fog.  It's the beam pattern that's important.  you need a wide pattern for fog lights, and a narrow pattern for driving lights.

[redwolf624]

in the end, lens color is pretty much irrelevant.  you can make them any color you want because yellow is only kinda better for seeing through fog.  It's the beam pattern that's important.  you need a wide pattern for fog lights, and a narrow pattern for driving lights.

i know pete, but currect me if i'm wrong but isn't that pattern cut into the lens. Drove pass a state trooper this mornin on my way back from droppin my brother off at school, waved for him to pull into the parkin lot, he did, asked him bout my lights (bein that i had on in my truck cause i went to the state inspector next) he said i can have em wired in as long as they shut off with my hi beams, state inspector said the same thing, i think today i'll have the lights wired in and mounted :)

 

Redwolf 

[Pete M]

depends on the manufacturer I guess.  they could also have a different reflector.  But either way, the difference between them will be blatantly obvious if they ever turn them on.  :thumbsup:

[Eagle]

depends on the manufacturer I guess.  they could also have a different reflector.  But either way, the difference between them will be blatantly obvious if they ever turn them on.  :thumbsup:

 

Fog lights and driving lights DO have different reflectors.

[Pete M]

for the nice ones I'm sure.  I just wouldn't hold it past the cheapies to use the same reflector part and bandaid it with the lenses. :D