Grand Wagoneer Rear Spring SOA Swap (DONE, More Pics Added)

[comanche09]

Hi all,

 

Took some measurements last night comparing my 4 leaf 2wd MJ springs to the 88 Grand Waggy FSJ 5 leafs.

 

MJ-

 

Leaf Spring Eye to Eye (54 1/2")

Leaf width (2 1/2")

Shackle Length Eye to Eye (4 1/2")

 

 

Waggy-

 

Leaf Eye to Eye (54 1/2")

Leaf width (2 1/2")

Shackle Length Eye to Eye- (3 1/4")

 

 

Center pins are in the same location dimensionally. The Waggy springs have less than half the arch of the 2wd MJ springs. Dimensionally it should be a bolt on installation, however, the Waggy bolts are about a 1/16 bigger and do not fit through the MJ eye sleeves. Possibly going to have to open up the holes a bit on the MJ unibody spring brackets front and rear. Pics coming soon.

[mkbruin]

I will absolutely be watching this thread.

[cracker]

Waggy rear springs are notorious for wearing out. The term is "wag sag" and is a common occurence. So as with any used spring set, what you wind up with lift-wise will depend on the condition of the donor springs well as the original application.

 

Source:

 

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12019&p=257018&hilit=wag+sag#p257018

[comanche09]

Waggy rear springs are notorious for wearing out. The term is "wag sag" and is a common occurence. So as with any used spring set, what you wind up with lift-wise will depend on the condition of the donor springs well as the original application.

 

Source:

 

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12019&p=257018&hilit=wag+sag#p257018

 

LOL, Any other naysayers care to come out of the woodwork? Anyone that actually has some experience with this swap care to chime in? :cheers:

 

Anyways, if you read my post in that link, I saw two Grand Waggys in the yard, an 84 and an 88, they were equipped with the same drivetrain (360 4x4) but the 84 had puny 4 leaf rears (with no overload leaf) that were flat unloaded (even had those aftermarket load shocks with springs on it, to compensate for the sag it had I'm sure.- This rig defined "Wag Sag"

 

I'm willing to bet that my MJ shortbed rear end is a bit lighter than the Waggy rear end... In the end, I'm hoping for only a 4" SOA lift, gaining much better ground clearance vs SUA and much better load capacity (Waggy 5 leaf). :cheers:

[neohic]

...Waggy bolts are about a 1/16 bigger and do not fit through the MJ eye sleeves. Possibly going to have to open up the holes a bit on the MJ unibody spring brackets front and rear.

 

What if you don't like them? Are the bushing the same outside dimension that you could use MJ bushings in place of the Waggy? If it were me, and with my luck, I'd put the packs in, not like them, and end up wondering what to do with the bigger holes on the truck. :dunno:

[comanche09]

...Waggy bolts are about a 1/16 bigger and do not fit through the MJ eye sleeves. Possibly going to have to open up the holes a bit on the MJ unibody spring brackets front and rear.

 

What if you don't like them? Are the bushing the same outside dimension that you could use MJ bushings in place of the Waggy? If it were me, and with my luck, I'd put the packs in, not like them, and end up wondering what to do with the bigger holes on the truck. :dunno:

 

Very good point. The bushings are slightly smaller on the Waggy springs. I could run the MJ bolts, but then there would be a little slop.... Hmm... Could try to cross reference bushings with the correct sleeve size, But I'm only $18 into this swap and want to keep it cheap.

[neohic]

According to NapaOnline:

 

 

Waggy:

Dimension A I.D. : .568"

Dimension B : 2.5"

Dimension C : 2.94"

Dimension D O.D. : 2.003"

 

MJ:

Dimension A I.D. : .56"

Dimension B : 2.5"

Dimension C : 2.74"

Dimension D O.D. : 1.76"

 

I would bet that you could go into Napa and ask to see the "big book of bushings" and find something that would work without any drilling.

 

Or could you get a sleave made up that fits inside the bushing to clean up the sloppy hardware?

[comanche09]

Wow, Thanks for posting that!

 

I just got done playing around with the bolts. The MJ bolt in its own sleeve has a little slop in it due the bolt "necking" down slightly in the middle. Putting the MJ bolt in the Waggy sleeve had the same result.

 

I wonder if the .008" difference in the A dimensions is even enough to worry about, especially after tightning them down?

[neohic]

Looking around and calling over to the local Husky Spring, the Comanche and Waggy use the same hardware for mounting. The guy at Husky couldn't find an internal difference between bushings either. I'd say run without any drilling.

[Suuperman]

I think the 'wag sag' terminology comes from the sagging rear driver's side on a many waggies due to the fuel tank being on the drivers side. Which of course the MJ has the same deal.

 

However MJs weigh a fair bit less than FSJs...especially over the rear end so if you are worried about sagging springs...just swap sides with them when you put them on your MJ.

 

The MJ springs may have a stiffer rate though...waggies show 2 different rates...one a good bit lower than the MJ and one that is slightly higher.

[shark]

...Waggy bolts are about a 1/16 bigger and do not fit through the MJ eye sleeves. Possibly going to have to open up the holes a bit on the MJ unibody spring brackets front and rear.

 

What if you don't like them? Are the bushing the same outside dimension that you could use MJ bushings in place of the Waggy? If it were me, and with my luck, I'd put the packs in, not like them, and end up wondering what to do with the bigger holes on the truck. :dunno:

if in fact there was a difference in bolt size and drilling had been done, washers could be welded to the outside of the stock hangers or it would be a good excuse to upgrade to beefier hangers. at least the hangers arent of the same design as XJ hangers. then you would have more of an issue. trust me.

 

anyway, please do this swap. i am very interested.

[Motion Offroad]

Waggy springs have a lot less free-arch than a factory MJ spring does (aka it's a flatter spring). They also have a different spring rate (aka waggy's weigh quite a bit more than the MJ's do).

 

Going with an essentially flat leaf (aprox 5" of free arch) as the Waggy springs are in a SOA application on our MJ's will have a very short life even without any added weight in the bed.

[comanche09]

Waggy springs have a lot less free-arch than a factory MJ spring does (aka it's a flatter spring). They also have a different spring rate (aka waggy's weigh quite a bit more than the MJ's do).

 

Going with an essentially flat leaf (aprox 5" of free arch) as the Waggy springs are in a SOA application on our MJ's will have a very short life even without any added weight in the bed.

 

Please explain. How would their life be any shorter than if they were in place on the heavier Waggy? (which is also SOA)

 

I am currently running your 3" lift leaves (SUA) and while they ride nice, in my experience they seem to not like to hold any weight even as well as the OEM's did. To be fair, I did buy them second hand.

[mkbruin]

build/swap pics?

[jimoshel]

To quote that Shakespear fella "much ado over nothing" .008 of a inch is critical in rebuilding a engine. Not on a spring bushing. I fail to see how mounting a SOA as compared to SUA will shorten it's life, unless maybe SUA will let it drag on the ground.

[comanche09]

As promised, pics:

 

 

MJ Spring Bolt on left, Waggy on right. I have determined that the Waggy bolt size is a non issue, they fit through the holes in the spring mounts. :brows:

 

 

2wd MJ spring on top, Waggy on bottom

 

 

 

All the axle hardware removed, axle just sitting on the SUA spring. Waiting for my buddies welder to weld the perches and shock mounts. Will post when its all together. :thumbsup:

[beaterjeep]

Any updates on this? I'm interested to see how it turned out, as I may be looking at a set of FSJ waggy leafs in SUA configuration to help drop Baby, instead of using blocks.

[Eagle]

Wow, Thanks for posting that!

 

I just got done playing around with the bolts. The MJ bolt in its own sleeve has a little slop in it due the bolt "necking" down slightly in the middle. Putting the MJ bolt in the Waggy sleeve had the same result.

 

I wonder if the .008" difference in the A dimensions is even enough to worry about, especially after tightning them down?

If the MJ is the same as the XJ, the factory rear spring bolts are 14mm. That's approximately .552". In a pinch, I have used 9/16" bolts in XJ rear springs ... those are .5625". The Grand Waggy is a derivative of the old full-size Cherokee, so I'd bet that the springs and bushings were not sized for metric hardware. Use 9/16" bolts and see if that helps.

[comanche09]

Wow, Thanks for posting that!

 

I just got done playing around with the bolts. The MJ bolt in its own sleeve has a little slop in it due the bolt "necking" down slightly in the middle. Putting the MJ bolt in the Waggy sleeve had the same result.

 

I wonder if the .008" difference in the A dimensions is even enough to worry about, especially after tightning them down?

If the MJ is the same as the XJ, the factory rear spring bolts are 14mm. That's approximately .552". In a pinch, I have used 9/16" bolts in XJ rear springs ... those are .5625". The Grand Waggy is a derivative of the old full-size Cherokee, so I'd bet that the springs and bushings were not sized for metric hardware. Use 9/16" bolts and see if that helps.

 

Thanks for the tip Eagle. :cheers: The Waggy bolts fit just fine, though the shackle thickness at the body mount was a bit tight I was able to persuade them in (BFH). Everything bolted right up! Judging by the way it looked fitted together, I'm looking at at least a 4" lift, maybe more....

 

...Unfortunately, my buddy with the welder has been swamped with work. No telling when he will be able to get over and weld the perches and shock mounts up. May have to offer him some $$$ on top of the beer and pizza heh. Stay tuned.

[TrailReadyMJ]

I fail to see how mounting a SOA as compared to SUA will shorten it's life, unless maybe SUA will let it drag on the ground.

 

The reason SOA shortens spring life is because you are more likely to have axle wrap than with SUA. With that said, the extra leaf in the waggy pack would help prevent this.

 

Same applies to running a flatter spring, it makes it easier to have axle wrap. But at the same time a flatter spring is capable of more flex (assuming the shackle angle is correct, ~45*), so you just need to find the sweet spot to fit your needs.

 

Axle wrap causes premature wear on the springs due to the twisting, and will eventually turn them into an "S" shape. SOA increases this effect since you are increasing leverage, think of it like using a longer wrench on a tight bolt. This is the primary cause for premature wear on a leaf pack, even in stock vehicles.

 

Of course you can add a traction bar to eliminate wrap, and not run into this issue.

[TrailReadyMJ]

Any updates on this? I'm interested to see how it turned out, as I may be looking at a set of FSJ waggy leafs in SUA configuration to help drop Baby, instead of using blocks.

If I was going to lower an MJ, I would look at replacing a couple of the MJ leaves with XJ leaves. The XJ packs are flatter and about the same rate, so you should be able to drop it without effecting the ride. Plus XJ packs should be a dime a dozen in the junkyard, where waggys are getting a bit harder to find.

[wannabeMJ]

I had a G-Waggy 88 and the first thing I did on it was to change the leafs on it!!! Damn they were curving down lolll

and I went and bought a set of BDS 4'' lift full pack leafs

 

I'm not sure about the load capacity on them but with my experience I wouldn't go with anything else if they would fit underneath the MJ

thats the waggy on 33'' and 4'' lift

[Incommando]

Waggy rear springs are notorious for wearing out. The term is "wag sag" and is a common occurence. So as with any used spring set, what you wind up with lift-wise will depend on the condition of the donor springs well as the original application.

 

To clarify: I was not naysaying the choice, just pointing out that used springs are a crap shoot and you have to be careful to get what you need. Worn out springs that fit can still make a several inch difference from good springs from the same donor model. I have a good low mile set of FSJ springs put away but my MJ springs seem pretty good based on ride comfort and height.

[comanche09]

Got em installed! :cheers: I finally ended up borrowing a MIG welder from another friend and did the welding myself. It ain't pretty but it will do fine.

 

Ended up about only 1.5" higher than my SUA 3" Motion Offroad lift leafs. So total about 4.5" lift over stock, which ain't bad going SOA. The topper I have on now only weighs about 125 lbs.

 

 

Some pics before the swap at the hunting camp, I had a 150 lb generator and about another 150 lbs of tools in the bed, only about 375lbs including the rollbar (notice the sag):

 

 

 

Here are pics of the Waggy springs going in and final setup (cheapy shocks :oops: ):

 

 

 

 

Pics of the lift:

 

 

 

 

In these pics there is about 500 lbs (welding machine, 3 ton jack, tools etc.) in the bed including the weigh of the topper. Loving the lack of sag and increase in ground clearance vs SUA.

 

 

 

It rides a little firmer, but I like that. Somewhere between a 1/2 ton and 3/4 truck. When I step on the bumper (I weigh 235lbs) the back end goes down about half what it did vs stock or 3in SUA leafs. :cheers: We'll see how she does offroad, no doubt I lost a little flex and travel, but for my uses (alot of weigh in the bed and pulling a trailer) I should be happier. :thumbsup:

 

Total Cost of Waggy Leaf Swap: ~40 bucks :banana:

 

Feel free to ask any questions about the swap! :cheers:

[HOrnbrod]

S10 topper?