oldrusty Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 ok....here's my problem....I have a 89 pioneer 4x4 longbed that is driving me nuts. The old girl has developed a nasty case of front end shake. At speeds below 60 mph it drives fine. But as soon as you get above 60 mph the frontend begins to shake violently. The only way to make it stop is to slow down below 35 mph. I had ben told that since to shake was speed related I should have the tires balanced. To test this theory I took the factory aluminum wheels with 235/75r15's off and bolted on a set of 31x10.50's on aluminum wheels that I knew were balanced. With the bigger tires the truck drove great no shake or wobble at all. So....I sent the smaller tires off to be spin balanced. I got them back today and they were all between .75 and 1.50 ounces out of balance. I put the small tires back on today and took the truck for a drive and guess what.......IT STILL SHAKES !!!!!!!! :fs1: :headpop: :grrrr: :rant: :hmm: :fs1: :headpop: :rant: :grrrr: :wall: :wall: I have checked everything under the front end and all the ball joints, tie rod ends, drag link,wheel bearings, check out ok. The track bar is a new napa stock replacement that has less than 10,000 miles on it. all the shocks are relatively new and good. The truck does have a 2" budget lift on the front ( spring spacers). It drove fine after the lift and has developed the shake since then. Does anyone have any ideas what I should be looking at here? I really don't want to run the 31's for winter treads and can't understand why it drives worse with smaller diameter skinnier tires......thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakal Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 how tight did you tighten the track bar? tighten it good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 Track bar is as tight as I can physically get it......I really don't get what the heck is wrong with this thing and hate to start throwing parts at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallisek Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Check your control arm bushings. My lower control arm bushings were all cracked and destroyed only after 80k and about 5 years old. They were causing horrible death wobble above 60mph, but only after I hit a rough patch in the road or bump. Replaced with adjustable control arms since I was planning a larger lift in the near future. Fixed my problem. Your bushings are probably shot all to hell after 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 I thought about that......is there any way to really tell if there good or bad? Control arms do seem to twist on the bushings by hand fairly easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakal Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 they shouldn't. pulll them off one at a time and check them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim. Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 there are many things that can cause death wobble check the ball joints, control arms, unit bearings, lug nuts, tire balance, track bar and mounts, tie rod ends etc... Â they will gang up on you so replace all worn parts or you will just wind up chasing it and getting nowhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stark Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Check your control arm bushings. My lower control arm bushings were all cracked and destroyed only after 80k and about 5 years old. They were causing horrible death wobble above 60mph, but only after I hit a rough patch in the road or bump. Replaced with adjustable control arms since I was planning a larger lift in the near future. Fixed my problem. Your bushings are probably shot all to hell after 20 years. Â :agree: Mine were so bad on Drippy that it was metal on metal. I went through http://www.energysuspensionparts.com & got the bushings for the entire truck for around $100. Definitely worth it. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakeman17 Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 My steering is really lose. i gotta look into it soon. Â but wobble could be caused by so much ball joint control arm bushings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geonovast Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Wheel balance Wheel bearings Ball joints U-joints Trackbar bushing or TRE Steering TREs Control Arm Bushings Control Arm themselves Very bad toe alignment Bad tires(not necessarily unbalance) from a horrible toe in alignment I've even seen out of balance front driveshafts on NON-CAD axles cause a bit of shaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvusse Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 You say the track bar is a new NAPA unit, but what about the track bar frame bracket? I have seen a LOT of these with elongated holes, allowing play no matter how new the track bar is and how tight you tighten it. Â But my first guess based on ^^^^ is the lower control arm bushings. Don't waste money on stock replacement bushings for the weak factory control arms. Get some after market adjustable control arms instead. Â Also, you did have a front alignment done after the lift, right? If not you have toe-in. Probably not enough to cause DW by itself, but possibly enough to push a marginal 20 year old suspension over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 WJ control arms from the junkyards. :D much newer, stronger, and have that awesome tire-clearing bend in them. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 thanks for all the advice. Like I said I have checked and rechecked the front end on this truck and I can't find any loose or worn parts. I was leaning twords the control arm bushings might have to look into some new control arms. I did have the alignment done after the lift and all was well. One thing I forot to mention this problem started last winter (havent driven the mj all summer because of it). It would shake just like it does now but, If I put the snowplow on and drove it the shake was gone. I don't have a problem replacing parts on a 20 year old suspension system just don't want to replace pasrts that arent bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakjeep93 Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 track bar bracket the hole might be ovaled out check it just might be you problem :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Here comes the Dutch uncle again: Â You guys are ALL overlooking the obvious - changing the tires eliminated the problem. Ergo, the problem is either the tires, or the rims. Just because you paid someone to balance the tires does NOT mean they are balanced. I have had to take some tires back three times before they finally got them balanced well enough not to shimmy at 55 - 60 MPH. Many years ago, I had a set of Dunlops on an AMX that one shop simply (the AMC dealer) could not balance. I had to forget the money I had spent and pay another shop to do it right. Â You are all assuming the problem here is death wobble, but with death wobble you have to nearly stop the vehicle to end the wobble. In this case, slowing down to 35 ends it. That sounds to me like "shimmy," not death wobble. And the speed at which it starts indicates wheel balance ... although a slightly bent rim could be a factor. A good balance technician would notice if a rim wasn't running true, but today there ARE no good balance technicians. Just minimum wage guys who are pointed at a tire machine and who think the machine always does a perfect job. Â Not! Â I got them back today and they were all between .75 and 1.50 ounces out of balance. Is that what the technician told you? That's garbage. Balancing a wheel involves both the correct amount of weight AND putting the weight in the correct location(s). There is no such thing as a tire being "out of balance by 'X' ounces." If there's any weight at all on a wheel, it is often (but not always) possible to correct a balance problem just by moving one or more weights on the rim. If this is what the shop told you, IMHO it is proof positive that they don't know what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakal Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 :bowdown: Â but not too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 I wasnt there when they balanced the tires so I'm not sure. My brother manages the detail shop at a local ford dealership and he took them to work and had them balanced. Ive had other tires done there and never had a problem. I did tell him to make sure they checked the rims and he said they were good. What confuses me is Ive had 2 different sets of tires on two different sets of aluminum wheels on the truck and both had the same result. But when I stepped up to the 31's on a third set of wheels the shake went away. I'm just kinda frustrated with the whole thing right now as I was sure balancing the tires was going to solve my problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Put those tires on again, and mark where each one goes. If you have the shimmy problem, rotate ('X') them, and try again. If that doesn't stop it, rotate again, but this time just move them front to back and back to front on the same side. The goal here is to try to isolate if one tire is the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakal Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 again :bowdown: Â little bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Thanks ill give that a try tomorrow evening after work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oizarod115 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 \Â I got them back today and they were all between .75 and 1.50 ounces out of balance. Is that what the technician told you? That's garbage. Balancing a wheel involves both the correct amount of weight AND putting the weight in the correct location(s). There is no such thing as a tire being "out of balance by 'X' ounces." If there's any weight at all on a wheel, it is often (but not always) possible to correct a balance problem just by moving one or more weights on the rim. If this is what the shop told you, IMHO it is proof positive that they don't know what they are doing. i'm gonna have to argue the last point there, the technician most likely meant merely that yes the tires were badly out of balance... Â when i pull the wheels of my volvo and balance them and only one tire needs any weight at all and is only off .25, i consider that to have been in good balance... Â when i pull the wheels of my truck and balance them and ALL four wheels require an ounce or more at first spin, they're badly out of balance... that's not to say that all i do is ADD an ounce where it says, if a tire is out that bad you take the weights off and start over from scratch. BUT it DOES MEAN that the tires were badly out of balance to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Even for stock size tires, one ounce is NOTHING. I've pulled three and four 2 or 2-1/2 ounce weights off tires before taking them to the shop to be re-balanced. A total of one ounce for a tire is virtually perfection personified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOrnbrod Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I'll drink to that. And if we're talking about stock 30-32 inch ATs or MTs larger than stock tires, if it goes up to 2.5-3.0 ounces it's also basically perfection. Except when it comes to Goodyears. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakal Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 i have 6 bfg 33 at mounted. each tire was all over the map for weights. i could of shaved them but i want the tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrusty Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 I went ahead and rotated the last night in an x pattern. I can now get the old girl up to right about 65 mph before the front end starts to boogie. The old girl drives as smooth as silk up to that point so vibration shimmy or shaking......I did notice that if I hit a pretty good bump at 45 mph and up I get a couple shakes from it but it settles back down after a couple seconds or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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